I'm very much afraid that you have not proved any such thing ('.... I have
proven my frets do match the organ').
My example of the first fret difficulty, which you now recognise, is but one
of the many fret positions where you will encounter similar problems. Your
earlier table of fret positions wholly ignores chromatic/diatonic alternatives
found in practice.
MH
LGS-Europe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
if you have straight frets across the fingerboard then the chromatic and
diatonic sequence of the frets will vary across the courses and you will
often NOT therefore be playing the same 'meantone' note as the keyboard
instrument
<<
Let's keep the discussion fair, albeit tedious, I admit. I think I have
proven my frets do match the organ, except the first fret (double) and the
G# on the fourth course. Fine if you don't accept this, than don't try it
and keep playing out of tune with meantone organs. You have not given any
workable alternative.
Repeat of last paragraph to end this, as it's not going anywhere:
I feel like the medieval musician here, arguing practical solutions for
which there are no perfect answers according to the musicologists. It works
for me: I can play in tune with a meantone organ. You are not convinced
using theoretical arguments. Fine, let's keep it at that.
Happy lute playing.
David
****************************
David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl
****************************
as you mistakenly seem to think. Your words ' ......... as all my notes
match the organ's' (unless, of course, you've persuaded the organist to
tune to your chaotic fretting).
>
> MH
>
> LGS-Europe wrote:
> Sorry, this mail went to Martyn only. I always try to keep sending just
> one
> copy, and to the list. Wrong button.
>
>
> Martyn wrote in responce (I didn't find that mail in my Lute List folder
> either)
>
>>> As I originally suspected the chimeric 'tastini' are therefore your
>>> solution (or asking the Director to hold on a bit whilst you adjust
>>> frets) - hmm......................
> <<
>
> To which I would reply something by now familiar-sounding like: if the
> organ
> doesn't retune, I don't have to either as all my notes match the organ's.
> Leaving out statements about Galilei's chimeric tastini or other practical
> solutions for the tastini-dislikers like a theorbo with six strings on the
> fingerboard only.
>
> Dear Martyn
>
>
>>> What you are also overlooking is what happens when, to take just one
>>> very simple early example in your table below, your first course is
>>> fretted at the first fret but not as a chromatic interval (ie G# for a
>>> lute in nominal G) but a diatonic interval of Ab?
> <<
>
> Sure, either G# or Ab, not both at the same time, obviously. You cannot
> have
> both on one fret, like the organ cannot have both on one key. The first
> fret
> is the practical problem for which practical solutions have to be found,
> yes. In pieces appropriate for meantone you're more likely to find G#, so
> a
> low first fret would do. In practice that is not my solution, as I find a
> low first fret clumsy in setting up. What I do is high first fret with low
> tastini for the bass courses. When I want to play a G# on the first course
> I
> fret it at the second course, 6th position. On a low 6th fret, for sure.
> In
> Dowland consort music this is how I manage with meantone viols. Other
> players I know manage with a low first fret, though, and high tastini for
> course 2 and 3. Good for them. But we've been here before, first fret and
> G#
> on the fourth course are the only problems, thye have practical solutions.
>
> Other answer: what does the organ do? G# or Ab? It has the same problem,
> it'll have to find an equally practical solution. It's actually the D#/Eb
> that is often bothersome. That's one we sometimes retune between pieces.
> We've even divided it on some concerts: D# for the organ, Eb for me. On a
> theorbo you can sometimes set both up, at different places on the
> fingerboard.
>
>>>
> Do your sums again using the additional alternative chromatic or diatonic
> notes as appropriate and then see what pattern you come up with.
> <<
>
> Doube first fret. Come on, let's not repeat ourselves.
>
>
>>>
> concert with such pieces? For example, last weekend I played continuo in
> an
> enjoyable programme of English based Cecilian Odes (Purcell, Clarke,
> Draghi - this last a real revelation and, incidentally, a key influence on
> P's later ode settings): keys ranged from B (5 sharps) through to Fm (4
> flats)
> <<
>
> Not a programme for which I'd advice meantone temperament! I'll be playing
> Handel's Alexander's Feast coming weekend: ET for me, with perhaps open F
> an
> C a little higher to be more in agreement with the organ and harpsichord
> (some unequal fifths temperament I'm affraid, don't know yet). Next week
> is
> going to Monteverdi's Maria Vespers, however. Perfect for meantone.
>
> I feel like the medieval musician here, arguing practical solutions for
> which there are no perfect answers according to the musicologists. It
> works
> for me: I can play in tune with a meantone organ. You are not convinced
> using theoretical arguments. Fine, let's keep it at that. Enough time
> spend
> writing. I have to study.
>
> David
>
>
> ****************************
> David van Ooijen
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.davidvanooijen.nl
> ****************************
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
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