Martyn,
Yes, I'm familiar with the previous discussion.
Far from being "modern" in my approach to this
music, it needs to be approached on its own terms.
Abrupt leaps of a major or minor seventh in an
otherwise scalar passage are fine for Stravinsky. In
baroque music they are not - unless the composer is
aiming for a special effect. Personally, my modern
ears don't find such a sudden jump too objectionable
but I can't imagine that baroque listeners wouldn't
find it extremely disturbing.
Suffice it to say that, without some sort of adaption
of the re-entrant theorbo tuning (i.e. an octave
second course being the most logical) many passages in
Pittoni and especially Melli make no sense in light of
standard baroque practice. (Even in Stravinsky's use
of octave displacement, examples of only one or two
notes being in the "wrong octave" as is found in
Pittoni is quite unusual.)
One other argument is favor of the octave second
course: most of the questionable passages present no
aural or technical problem is the "wierd" notes are
played on the "proper" course. So why write it in tab
the way it is written?
Anyway, the point of the octave course - to me quite
impossible to refute - is that there must have been
theorbos short enough or strings strong enough to
stand the pitch. (From experience, I opt for the
former.)
Chris
--- Martyn Hodgson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> You'll find the earlier (longish) discussion on
> Pittoni in the archives. By inventing such a thing
> as octaves on the second course, you're in danger of
> imposing your views on the music to make it fit your
> pre-conceptions.
>
> MH
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Martyn,
>
>
> Yes, I know many have used the term "toy"
> theorbo. That doesn't mean it isn't inappropriate or
> short-sighted.
>
> Much impressive scholarly work has been done by
> Lynda and others. Unfortunately, for the question of
> stringing and pitch, so much of what we have to go
> on
> is conjecture of gut's capabilities based upon our
> modern reproductions of the strings. Many people
> have
> put a lot of effort into researching how
> contemporary
> strings would have been made, but most will agree
> that
> we're not quite there yet.
>
> (As for Lynda's website - While I'm by no means
> the theorbo specialist she is, I notice a couple of
> inconsistencies. She says, for example, that all
> existing solo theorbo music can be played with only
> six courses on the board. Bartolotti apparently
> calls
> for a fretted 7th course. Also, while arguing that
> most theorbos were double-strung, most of the
> illustrations on the site show single-strung
> instruments. I suppose its not fair to judge her
> scholarly work by the website but these are two
> obvious points.)
>
> And what about something like Pittoni's or Melli's
> theorbo music which obviously demands a low
> (re-entrant) AND high octave on the second course?
> As
> far as I know there is no written evidence for this
> but the music clearly demands it from context. This
> in effect calls for a non-reentrant tuning of the
> second course and either points to a shorter neck
> and
> more robust gut (or brass???) strings than what we
> have today. Since Pittoni includes an obligato part
> for keyboard, (organ and cembalo) comparing the tab
> with the standard notation shows that he wrote for
> an
> instrument in A. He also presumably expected the
> theorbo part to be heard as a soloist over the
> keyboard so it seems unliky that he would have liked
> a
> tubby-sounding and impossible-in-practice "toy."
>
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
> --- Martyn Hodgson wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I'm merely pointing out that his advice to others
> > is based on no evidence. I, and others, have used
> > the expression 'toy' theorbos many times to
> describe
> > such unhistorical instruments. Theorbos do,
> indeed,
> > come in various sizes but those of the size he
> > indicates would have only had the first course an
> > octave down or be tuned much higher (as the Talbot
> > MS's 'Lesser Fr. theorboe for lessons').
> >
> > May I suggest you look at Lynda Sayces website for
> > more on this.
> >
> > MH
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Martyn,
> >
> > --- Martyn Hodgson wrote:
> >
> > > Clearly, with modern overwound strings, 'toy'
> > > theorboes are possible but that is insufficient
> > > reason for suggesting them as the first choice
> > >
> > > MH
> > >
> >
> > Is it really necessary to use such condescending
> > language? The iconographical and historical record
> > you sighted actually work against the point you're
> > making: theorbos clearly came in all shapes and
> > sizes
> > with varying numbers of strings and stringing
> setup
> > (i.e. double, single, etc). Trying to "lay down
> the
> > law" and state unequivocally that we can posit
> > exactly
> > how and to what pitch all of these different types
> > of
> > theorbos were tuned is simply untenable as of now.
>
> > There may not have even been - and probably wasn't
> -
> > such a thing as THE theorbo back in the day. We
> may
> > eventually be able to uncover the truth, but we
> may
> > also never know. The situation is confusing enough
> > without the ol' Early Music Police showing up on
> the
> > scene. ;-)
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
>
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>
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