Anthony, Are you suggesting that dyeing gut strings would somehow change their
mass?
I do not think that you can change the specific weight of gut by any chemical
means.
DD
Unless I am mistaken in my interpretation, it does seem that this loading of
leather with oxides was a sub-part of the dyeing trade.
"Several ancient recipes could have been easily employed for `loading' gut
(see, for instance, Giovanventura Rossetti's recipes for dyeing fabrics, silk
and leather in his 'Plichto de l'arte de tentori che insegna tenger pani,
telle, banbasi et sede si per larthe magiore come per la comune', Venezia,
1568). Some of these describe how to incorporate cinnabar (red mercury
sulphide) or lithargyrum (yellow lead oxide) into wax, leather, silk, wood,
hair, inks &c.: indeed, only a short step away from gut." MP
It was called dyeing, but it is possible that this was carried out by very
specialized dyeing ateliers, rather than the general dyeing trade.
I suppose today, if I wanted to dye my strings green, I could pop into any
shop and find a suitable substance, but if you are doing this in mass, and it
seems that huge numbers of strings were exported from Italy.
When I heard the figure, I was astounded. Unfortunately, I just heard it and
can not quote the figures. In that case, I would think that there would have to
be commerce between string makers and dye people.
If that is the case, they would surely have discussed their trade. There
could even have been marriage between families who met in this way. I am just
imagining. This sort of socio-economic history of these trades, as you suggest
could be very interesting. Although their practices were very secretive, which
is a hindrance, usually evidence is indirect.
Of course, even if there had not been any commerce at all between the dyeing
trade and the gut trade, some gut maker could have become aware of such
practices as loading leather, and tried it; but it is just a little more likely
that this might happen, if such a relation existed. At the same time, you are
right, it is not because there was a potential for this to happen that it
actually did.
There are often missed opportunities, just as there are happy chance
encounters of completely independant thinkers.
I think it would be helpful to know more about how stringmaking guilds
operated, how they defined their
areas of specialization. I know Mimmo has done some work in this area, but
it would be really valuable
to have a better understanding how this worked. Taking a broad view of the
commercial aspects is perhaps
worthwhile. According to Dowland there were two major markets in Leipzig
and Frankfurt at two times
the year, Easter and Michaelmas which falls in late September. To these
fairs gathered merchants from all
over Europe who purchased quantities of strings, presumably from
representatives of the stringmakers who
worked in major stringmaking centers in Italy, Germany and France. They
would return to their own countries and would then travel to different local
fairs or markets where the retail customer could purchase the strings
for his lute or violin. Fernand Braudel describes the mechanisms of trade
in the second volume of his series, Civilization and Capitalism 15th-18th
Century. Did certains centers activity specialize in only one type of string,
so that for example a Venice string was very highly twisted, whereas Romans had
more moderate torsions? This does seem to be the case. But I feel that to
leap to the conclusion that each area made some radically different
type of string like our modern mannerist expirements, is going to far.
I agree, I do think this would be an extremely interesting area of research,
and I do think Mimmo and Daniela, in their spare time (where do they find spare
time?)
are looking into this.
This stringmaking tradition was not
seriously disrupted until WWI which was cataclysmic. But until that time
there is a direct line to the 17th century.
In 1910, the best strings were still believed to come from Italy.
I am not sure whether the line was completely direct and unbroken. There may
have been some sort of upheaval that effected the centre of the guilds (similar
to what happened in Fussen), perhaps isolating the "outposts" from the centre.
I am not sure about that, but if there waere such an upheaval, you could have
some skills lost, while others might be kept on locally in the other smaller
centres that have not been so effected.
And there were no loaded or roped strings
that I have been able to discover, just gut strings with various degrees of
torsion.
I am not sure that proves that none existed. Obvioulsy, if we found some in
an old case, that would presumably prove that they did (or if some old man was
still found with the knowledeg today), but we do know that demi-file were made
at one period (Mest lute, and texts), but I do believe they were stopped
probably sometime after full wirewounds caught on, and that particular part of
the tradition was broken (I could be wrong, but that was my impression).
However, Charles Besnaiou showed me a painting which definitely does seem to
show a gut rope on a Gamba or cello, I don't remember which (he also sent it to
the French lute list, so all the French members of our list should be able to
confirm that). I also think there is mention of them somewhere in an early text
(Mimmo quotes that text, but I don't recall where, right now).
There was also mention of them in a text on artillery catapults (A. Ramelli's
"Livres des divereses et artificieuses. machines), of a type of rope "faicte en
la fa=E7on des grosses cordes des basse-contres des gros violons. So it is said
here, explicitly that these ropes were used on bass bowed instruments. A close
up of the "corde" in question in the engraving does seem to show a rope.
Charles recognizes this rope, as being of the type of his stretchy toroidal
ropes. We can understand why, as these ropes must stand sudden shocks.
A lutist who had also been a merchant navy ship's Captain told me that this
rope type was also used for mooring ships, when the weather is rough, and he
mentioned that he had seen similar ones on South American harps as the lowest
bass string..
And what about measurment? There was no measuring system in place until
the late 19th century. All
artisan activity such as violin and lute making was accomplished through
the use of proportion as a tool
of measurment. How does the luthier or lute player determine which strings
are the right size? I don't see
Meresenne's method of wrapping a string around a cylinder several times and
counting the turns to be
a reliable or practical tool. From some sources we know they talk about
the number of 'guts' which
could mean a whole casing or one or another side of a split casing. So
there are many mysteries in
the ancient string art that we would like to solve, and I think that aside
from practical everyday experience,
we need to look more closely at the inner workings of commerce.
I do agree with you,here, although I fear not many will follow us in that
direction. I hope I am wrong, but I think most musicians just want good
strings, and are not that interested even in how they are made.
(I say this because Charles Besnainou has tried to organize string making
classes at the SFL, and I think three lutists turned up. I have to admit that I
did not go, but not because it didn't interest me.
I find it hard enough to tie my shoe laces, without nails, and feared I would
look a complete fool.)
So that the socio-economic history of the string trade may not grab the
attention of many. Personally, I do think it is very very important, as are any
scraps of information we can find about how strings were made in the past.
Perhaps, we could also study the remaining tradition of gut string making in
other areas than Europe. There are such areas where a trade still exists,
although it is very much endangered by synthetic strings.
It could be interesting to see the string types they use.
Regards
Anthony
DD
From: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "damian dlugolecki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Fw: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed
12c/loaded/Demi-file
Damian
Well let me say, what I actually said again, in slightly different
words, but meaning exactly the same thing.
The more we see that string makers were playing round with dyes, for
whatever reason, including the one you put forward (which is
different from that of Martin), the more likely it is that they would
have come accross the dyeing process of leather, which is in fact a
loading process. I did not say that thay had done so, just that it
would be more likely, simply because the recipes for dyeing leather,
using metal oxides, were being applied in the region at the centre of
which you could find this powerful string trade guild. There is no
jump to any conclusion in what I have -just said, that could be
considered as stretching any evidence.
If two similar types of activity are taking place in the same area,
there is simply more likelihood that they will meet in some way, not
certainty, just a greater degree of likelihood.
That is all I said, nothing more or less.
Regards
Anthony
Le 4 juin 08 =E0 22:47, damian dlugolecki a ecrit :
Please visit my web site at www.damianstrings.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "damian dlugolecki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-file
I had forgotten about the Dowland quote which indicates that 'some'
strings, not 'all kinds' as Martin infers
were colored. Since strings were known only by their place of
manufacture, i.e., Romans, Pistoia, Bologna, etc.
perhaps some enterprising maker added dye to the bath to distinguish
his strings from those of others, or,
to distinguish one type of torsion from another. But to leap to the
conclusion that they were loading
the strings in some way is stretching the evidence to say the least.
From: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Martin Shepherd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 2:46 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-file
Le 4 juin 08 =E0 10:40, Martin Shepherd a ecrit :
Dear All,
Dowland (VLL, 1610, sig.Dv.) says:
"Some strings there are which are coloured, out of which choose the
lightest colours, viz. among the Greene choose the Sea-water, of Red the
Carnation, and of Blew the Watchet."
At this point he is talking about strings in general, not just bass
strings, so it seems that all kinds of strings were made in different
colours. I assume he recommends the lightest colours because a dark colour
would make it harder to assess the quality of the string, but he doesn't say
so explicitly.
Martin
I have a brown Venice which is just as good as the lighter yellow
one. I actually prefer it for the appearance, but not the sound. It
is true that colour is not a proof alone of anything. Indeed, loading
can also result in various colours, but it sounds unlikely that this
is exactly what Dowland is speaking about here.
Nevertheless, this does seem to imply that string makers were
experimenting in dyeing strings, and if that is so it is even more
likely that they would have thought of using recipes designed, by the
dyeing trade, for leathers, and these certainly did include dyeing
with oxides (a form of loading), even if it might not have been
called so.
As I said previously, the leather dyeing trade in Italy (where these
recipes were definitely applied) was situated in the same region from
where the centre of the powerful string guild was situated (whose
tentacles were to spread to Munich, to Spain, to Lyons and even Paris).
If the string makers were trying out the various effects of dyeing
strings, it seems probable that they would have tried these out. If
they liked the effect they would have commercialized them.
That does not necessarily mean that they did.
However, Mace, in his time, does say that Pistoys dyed red, are the
best. He could just be partial to the colour (I do like the
appearance of those red strings), but it seems more likely that the
effect the dyeing process had on these strings was what made him
prefer them. As red dye on leather, was at that time brought about by
a metal salt, it is at least plausible that an oxide was involved.
I do agree that we can't just choose to give importance to Mace, and
just to ignore Dowland, just because the one seems to confirm what we
are looking for; but there may not be such a contradiction, if we
consider that there was a period of intense experimentation in
colouring processes on strings, but that the results initially, were
not all particularly significant. Confronted with the variable
results of these experiments, Dowland might have adopted the
practical method of choice that you are suggesting, for the reason
you suggest.
However, string colour is not the main argument in favour of the
existence of loading, although, it is perhaps the most attractive, as
you can hope to actually see the trace of them in a painting,
especially if they all happen to be bass register strings. It is,
indeed, striking when you see the colour of a loaded string so like
that of a string in a painting. However, a more conclusive proof,
other than finding a "fossilized" loaded string, would perhaps be
finding details about a stock of red oxide, in the inventory of a
string maker's atelier.
Anthony
Best wishes,
Martin
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