Anthony, Are you suggesting that dyeing gut strings would somehow
change their mass?
I do not think that you can change the specific weight of gut by
any chemical means.
DD
Unless I am mistaken in my interpretation, it does seem that this
loading of leather with oxides was a sub-part of the dyeing trade.
"Several ancient recipes could have been easily employed for
`loading' gut (see, for instance, Giovanventura Rossetti's recipes
for dyeing fabrics, silk and leather in his 'Plichto de l'arte de
tentori che insegna tenger pani, telle, banbasi et sede si per
larthe magiore come per la comune', Venezia, 1568). Some of these
describe how to incorporate cinnabar (red mercury sulphide) or
lithargyrum (yellow lead oxide) into wax, leather, silk, wood,
hair, inks &c.: indeed, only a short step away from gut." MP
It was called dyeing, but it is possible that this was carried
out by very specialized dyeing ateliers, rather than the general
dyeing trade.
I suppose today, if I wanted to dye my strings green, I could pop
into any shop and find a suitable substance, but if you are doing
this in mass, and it seems that huge numbers of strings were
exported from Italy.
When I heard the figure, I was astounded. Unfortunately, I just
heard it and can not quote the figures. In that case, I would think
that there would have to be commerce between string makers and dye
people.
If that is the case, they would surely have discussed their
trade. There could even have been marriage between families who met
in this way. I am just imagining. This sort of socio-economic
history of these trades, as you suggest could be very interesting.
Although their practices were very secretive, which is a hindrance,
usually evidence is indirect.
Of course, even if there had not been any commerce at all
between the dyeing trade and the gut trade, some gut maker could
have become aware of such practices as loading leather, and tried
it; but it is just a little more likely that this might happen, if
such a relation existed. At the same time, you are right, it is not
because there was a potential for this to happen that it actually did.
There are often missed opportunities, just as there are happy
chance encounters of completely independant thinkers.
I think it would be helpful to know more about how stringmaking
guilds operated, how they defined their
areas of specialization. I know Mimmo has done some work in
this area, but it would be really valuable
to have a better understanding how this worked. Taking a broad
view of the commercial aspects is perhaps
worthwhile. According to Dowland there were two major markets
in Leipzig and Frankfurt at two times
the year, Easter and Michaelmas which falls in late September.
To these fairs gathered merchants from all
over Europe who purchased quantities of strings, presumably
from representatives of the stringmakers who
worked in major stringmaking centers in Italy, Germany and
France. They would return to their own countries and would then
travel to different local fairs or markets where the retail
customer could purchase the strings
for his lute or violin. Fernand Braudel describes the
mechanisms of trade in the second volume of his series,
Civilization and Capitalism 15th-18th Century. Did certains
centers activity specialize in only one type of string, so that for
example a Venice string was very highly twisted, whereas Romans had
more moderate torsions? This does seem to be the case. But I feel
that to leap to the conclusion that each area made some radically
different
type of string like our modern mannerist expirements, is going
to far.
I agree, I do think this would be an extremely interesting area
of research, and I do think Mimmo and Daniela, in their spare time
(where do they find spare time?)
are looking into this.
This stringmaking tradition was not
seriously disrupted until WWI which was cataclysmic. But until
that time there is a direct line to the 17th century.
In 1910, the best strings were still believed to come from Italy.
I am not sure whether the line was completely direct and
unbroken. There may have been some sort of upheaval that effected
the centre of the guilds (similar to what happened in Fussen),
perhaps isolating the "outposts" from the centre.
I am not sure about that, but if there waere such an upheaval,
you could have some skills lost, while others might be kept on
locally in the other smaller centres that have not been so effected.
And there were no loaded or roped strings
that I have been able to discover, just gut strings with
various degrees of torsion.
I am not sure that proves that none existed. Obvioulsy, if we
found some in an old case, that would presumably prove that they
did (or if some old man was still found with the knowledeg today),
but we do know that demi-file were made at one period (Mest lute,
and texts), but I do believe they were stopped probably sometime
after full wirewounds caught on, and that particular part of the
tradition was broken (I could be wrong, but that was my impression).
However, Charles Besnaiou showed me a painting which definitely
does seem to show a gut rope on a Gamba or cello, I don't remember
which (he also sent it to the French lute list, so all the French
members of our list should be able to confirm that). I also think
there is mention of them somewhere in an early text (Mimmo quotes
that text, but I don't recall where, right now).
There was also mention of them in a text on artillery catapults
(A. Ramelli's "Livres des divereses et artificieuses. machines), of
a type of rope "faicte en la fa=E7on des grosses cordes des basse-
contres des gros violons. So it is said here, explicitly that these
ropes were used on bass bowed instruments. A close up of the
"corde" in question in the engraving does seem to show a rope.
Charles recognizes this rope, as being of the type of his stretchy
toroidal ropes. We can understand why, as these ropes must stand
sudden shocks.
A lutist who had also been a merchant navy ship's Captain told me
that this rope type was also used for mooring ships, when the
weather is rough, and he mentioned that he had seen similar ones on
South American harps as the lowest bass string..
And what about measurment? There was no measuring system in
place until the late 19th century. All
artisan activity such as violin and lute making was
accomplished through the use of proportion as a tool
of measurment. How does the luthier or lute player determine
which strings are the right size? I don't see
Meresenne's method of wrapping a string around a cylinder
several times and counting the turns to be
a reliable or practical tool. From some sources we know they
talk about the number of 'guts' which
could mean a whole casing or one or another side of a split
casing. So there are many mysteries in
the ancient string art that we would like to solve, and I think
that aside from practical everyday experience,
we need to look more closely at the inner workings of commerce.
I do agree with you,here, although I fear not many will follow us
in that direction. I hope I am wrong, but I think most musicians
just want good strings, and are not that interested even in how
they are made.
(I say this because Charles Besnainou has tried to organize
string making classes at the SFL, and I think three lutists turned
up. I have to admit that I did not go, but not because it didn't
interest me.
I find it hard enough to tie my shoe laces, without nails, and
feared I would look a complete fool.)
So that the socio-economic history of the string trade may not
grab the attention of many. Personally, I do think it is very very
important, as are any scraps of information we can find about how
strings were made in the past.
Perhaps, we could also study the remaining tradition of gut
string making in other areas than Europe. There are such areas
where a trade still exists, although it is very much endangered by
synthetic strings.
It could be interesting to see the string types they use.
Regards
Anthony
DD
From: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "damian dlugolecki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Fw: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/
loaded/Demi-file
Damian
Well let me say, what I actually said again, in slightly different
words, but meaning exactly the same thing.
The more we see that string makers were playing round with
dyes, for
whatever reason, including the one you put forward (which is
different from that of Martin), the more likely it is that they
would
have come accross the dyeing process of leather, which is in
fact a
loading process. I did not say that thay had done so, just that it
would be more likely, simply because the recipes for dyeing
leather,
using metal oxides, were being applied in the region at the
centre of
which you could find this powerful string trade guild. There is no
jump to any conclusion in what I have -just said, that could be
considered as stretching any evidence.
If two similar types of activity are taking place in the same
area,
there is simply more likelihood that they will meet in some
way, not
certainty, just a greater degree of likelihood.
That is all I said, nothing more or less.
Regards
Anthony
Le 4 juin 08 =E0 22:47, damian dlugolecki a ecrit :
Please visit my web site at www.damianstrings.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "damian dlugolecki"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/
Demi-file
I had forgotten about the Dowland quote which indicates
that 'some' strings, not 'all kinds' as Martin infers
were colored. Since strings were known only by their place
of manufacture, i.e., Romans, Pistoia, Bologna, etc.
perhaps some enterprising maker added dye to the bath to
distinguish his strings from those of others, or,
to distinguish one type of torsion from another. But to
leap to the conclusion that they were loading
the strings in some way is stretching the evidence to say
the least.
From: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Martin Shepherd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 2:46 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/
Demi-file
Le 4 juin 08 =E0 10:40, Martin Shepherd a ecrit :
Dear All,
Dowland (VLL, 1610, sig.Dv.) says:
"Some strings there are which are coloured, out of which
choose the lightest colours, viz. among the Greene choose the Sea-
water, of Red the Carnation, and of Blew the Watchet."
At this point he is talking about strings in general, not
just bass strings, so it seems that all kinds of strings were made
in different colours. I assume he recommends the lightest
colours because a dark colour would make it harder to assess the
quality of the string, but he doesn't say so explicitly.
Martin
I have a brown Venice which is just as good as the lighter
yellow
one. I actually prefer it for the appearance, but not the
sound. It
is true that colour is not a proof alone of anything.
Indeed, loading
can also result in various colours, but it sounds unlikely
that this
is exactly what Dowland is speaking about here.
Nevertheless, this does seem to imply that string makers were
experimenting in dyeing strings, and if that is so it is
even more
likely that they would have thought of using recipes
designed, by the
dyeing trade, for leathers, and these certainly did include
dyeing
with oxides (a form of loading), even if it might not have
been
called so.
As I said previously, the leather dyeing trade in Italy
(where these
recipes were definitely applied) was situated in the same
region from
where the centre of the powerful string guild was situated
(whose
tentacles were to spread to Munich, to Spain, to Lyons and
even Paris).
If the string makers were trying out the various effects of
dyeing
strings, it seems probable that they would have tried these
out. If
they liked the effect they would have commercialized them.
That does not necessarily mean that they did.
However, Mace, in his time, does say that Pistoys dyed red,
are the
best. He could just be partial to the colour (I do like the
appearance of those red strings), but it seems more likely
that the
effect the dyeing process had on these strings was what
made him
prefer them. As red dye on leather, was at that time
brought about by
a metal salt, it is at least plausible that an oxide was
involved.
I do agree that we can't just choose to give importance to
Mace, and
just to ignore Dowland, just because the one seems to
confirm what we
are looking for; but there may not be such a contradiction,
if we
consider that there was a period of intense experimentation in
colouring processes on strings, but that the results
initially, were
not all particularly significant. Confronted with the variable
results of these experiments, Dowland might have adopted the
practical method of choice that you are suggesting, for the
reason
you suggest.
However, string colour is not the main argument in favour
of the
existence of loading, although, it is perhaps the most
attractive, as
you can hope to actually see the trace of them in a painting,
especially if they all happen to be bass register strings.
It is,
indeed, striking when you see the colour of a loaded string
so like
that of a string in a painting. However, a more conclusive
proof,
other than finding a "fossilized" loaded string, would
perhaps be
finding details about a stock of red oxide, in the
inventory of a
string maker's atelier.
Anthony
Best wishes,
Martin
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