There is no way to change the specific weight or mass of a gut
string by chemical means. If someone
were to claim that there are ways to chemically change the gut
to make it heavier, that would be classed
as some kind of alchemy.
DD
Damian,
No I think that what they called a dyeing process may have
been a
form of loading, or a charging, process: incorporating
oxides,
probably does load the material, even if the person dyeing the
leather does not think of it in that way, his intention may
just be
to colour the leather with the oxide, and not care in the
least about
the change of specific weight (although, again adding weight
to the
material may be seen as making it somehow enriching it and
making it
more noble), but I have not seen the recipes by Giovanventura
Rossetti's for dyeing fabrics, silk and leather, and even if I
did, I
am not sure I would be able to recognize the technology. I am
not a
chemist. I imagine there might be various ways this could be
done,
but I honestly don't have any idea of exactly what that might
be. I
suppose oil paint on a canvass could be a form of loading.
Some are
painted so thick the process must add weight, but the painter
probably does not think of it in that way.
I have no idea whether other dyeing processes (that don't add
weight)
might nevertheless alter the behaviour of the gut, other than
simply
colouring it. I suppose that depends on the accompanying
chemicals.
However, it could have been purely decorative, except for in
some the
colour does seem to be on the basses, why? What were those red
pistoys that Mace was speaking about?
There is a rather strange game that English children play with
horse
chestnuts (conkers), thy put a piece of string through it with
a knot
on the end, and they precede to try to smash their adversaries
conker
with their own.
I understood from some children that their fathers had handed
them
down old (secret) recipes for hardening and strengthening
these
chestnuts, so some had "centurians" (that had destroyed a
hundred
others).
http://tinyurl.com/5ju9pc
They pickled them roasted them, and did all manner of other
things to
them, perhaps even loading them, but the point is, if children
can
experiment with such recipes, we can suppose string makers
should
also have been quite inventive. Some reipes are given here
http://tinyurl.com/yv8z7g
Again, I do not consider that in any way as a proof, just part
of my
thoughts on the topic.
I hardly ever played that game, and my father never handed me
down
any such resipe, so I don't suppose he played conkers either.
Regards
Anthony
Le 5 juin 08 à 16:57, damian dlugolecki a écrit :
Anthony, Are you suggesting that dyeing gut strings would
somehow change their mass?
I do not think that you can change the specific weight of
gut by any chemical means.
DD
Unless I am mistaken in my interpretation, it does seem
that this loading of leather with oxides was a sub-part of
the dyeing trade.
"Several ancient recipes could have been easily employed
for `loading' gut (see, for instance, Giovanventura
Rossetti's recipes for dyeing fabrics, silk and leather in
his 'Plichto de l'arte de tentori che insegna tenger pani,
telle, banbasi et sede si per larthe magiore come per la
comune', Venezia, 1568). Some of these describe how to
incorporate cinnabar (red mercury sulphide) or lithargyrum
(yellow lead oxide) into wax, leather, silk, wood, hair,
inks &c.: indeed, only a short step away from gut." MP
It was called dyeing, but it is possible that this was
carried out by very specialized dyeing ateliers, rather
than the general dyeing trade.
I suppose today, if I wanted to dye my strings green, I
could pop into any shop and find a suitable substance, but
if you are doing this in mass, and it seems that huge
numbers of strings were exported from Italy.
When I heard the figure, I was astounded. Unfortunately, I
just heard it and can not quote the figures. In that case,
I would think that there would have to be commerce between
string makers and dye people.
If that is the case, they would surely have discussed
their trade. There could even have been marriage between
families who met in this way. I am just imagining. This
sort of socio-economic history of these trades, as you
suggest could be very interesting. Although their practices
were very secretive, which is a hindrance, usually evidence
is indirect.
Of course, even if there had not been any commerce at all
between the dyeing trade and the gut trade, some gut maker
could have become aware of such practices as loading
leather, and tried it; but it is just a little more likely
that this might happen, if such a relation existed. At the
same time, you are right, it is not because there was a
potential for this to happen that it actually did.
There are often missed opportunities, just as there are
happy chance encounters of completely independant thinkers.
I think it would be helpful to know more about how
stringmaking guilds operated, how they defined their
areas of specialization. I know Mimmo has done some
work in this area, but it would be really valuable
to have a better understanding how this worked. Taking
a broad view of the commercial aspects is perhaps
worthwhile. According to Dowland there were two major
markets in Leipzig and Frankfurt at two times
the year, Easter and Michaelmas which falls in late
September. To these fairs gathered merchants from all
over Europe who purchased quantities of strings,
presumably from representatives of the stringmakers who
worked in major stringmaking centers in Italy, Germany
and France. They would return to their own countries and
would then travel to different local fairs or markets where
the retail customer could purchase the strings
for his lute or violin. Fernand Braudel describes the
mechanisms of trade in the second volume of his series,
Civilization and Capitalism 15th-18th Century. Did certains
centers activity specialize in only one type of string, so
that for example a Venice string was very highly twisted,
whereas Romans had more moderate torsions? This does seem
to be the case. But I feel that to leap to the conclusion
that each area made some radically different
type of string like our modern mannerist expirements, is
going to far.
I agree, I do think this would be an extremely interesting
area of research, and I do think Mimmo and Daniela, in
their spare time (where do they find spare time?)
are looking into this.
This stringmaking tradition was not
seriously disrupted until WWI which was cataclysmic.
But until that time there is a direct line to the 17th
century.
In 1910, the best strings were still believed to come
from Italy.
I am not sure whether the line was completely direct and
unbroken. There may have been some sort of upheaval that
effected the centre of the guilds (similar to what happened
in Fussen), perhaps isolating the "outposts" from the
centre.
I am not sure about that, but if there waere such an
upheaval, you could have some skills lost, while others
might be kept on locally in the other smaller centres that
have not been so effected.
And there were no loaded or roped strings
that I have been able to discover, just gut strings with
various degrees of torsion.
I am not sure that proves that none existed. Obvioulsy,
if we found some in an old case, that would presumably
prove that they did (or if some old man was still found
with the knowledeg today), but we do know that demi-file
were made at one period (Mest lute, and texts), but I do
believe they were stopped probably sometime after full
wirewounds caught on, and that particular part of the
tradition was broken (I could be wrong, but that was my
impression).
However, Charles Besnaiou showed me a painting which
definitely does seem to show a gut rope on a Gamba or
cello, I don't remember which (he also sent it to the
French lute list, so all the French members of our list
should be able to confirm that). I also think there is
mention of them somewhere in an early text (Mimmo quotes
that text, but I don't recall where, right now).
There was also mention of them in a text on artillery
catapults (A. Ramelli's "Livres des divereses et
artificieuses. machines), of a type of rope "faicte en la
fa=E7on des grosses cordes des basse- contres des gros
violons. So it is said here, explicitly that these ropes
were used on bass bowed instruments. A close up of the
"corde" in question in the engraving does seem to show a
rope. Charles recognizes this rope, as being of the type of
his stretchy toroidal ropes. We can understand why, as
these ropes must stand sudden shocks.
A lutist who had also been a merchant navy ship's Captain
told me that this rope type was also used for mooring
ships, when the weather is rough, and he mentioned that he
had seen similar ones on South American harps as the lowest
bass string..
And what about measurment? There was no measuring
system in place until the late 19th century. All
artisan activity such as violin and lute making was
accomplished through the use of proportion as a tool
of measurment. How does the luthier or lute player
determine which strings are the right size? I don't see
Meresenne's method of wrapping a string around a
cylinder several times and counting the turns to be
a reliable or practical tool. From some sources we know
they talk about the number of 'guts' which
could mean a whole casing or one or another side of a
split casing. So there are many mysteries in
the ancient string art that we would like to solve, and
I think that aside from practical everyday experience,
we need to look more closely at the inner workings of
commerce.
I do agree with you,here, although I fear not many will
follow us in that direction. I hope I am wrong, but I think
most musicians just want good strings, and are not that
interested even in how they are made.
(I say this because Charles Besnainou has tried to
organize string making classes at the SFL, and I think
three lutists turned up. I have to admit that I did not go,
but not because it didn't interest me.
I find it hard enough to tie my shoe laces, without nails,
and feared I would look a complete fool.)
So that the socio-economic history of the string trade may
not grab the attention of many. Personally, I do think it
is very very important, as are any scraps of information we
can find about how strings were made in the past.
Perhaps, we could also study the remaining tradition of
gut string making in other areas than Europe. There are
such areas where a trade still exists, although it is very
much endangered by synthetic strings.
It could be interesting to see the string types they use.
Regards
Anthony
DD
From: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "damian dlugolecki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Fw: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double
headed 12c/ loaded/Demi-file
Damian
Well let me say, what I actually said again, in slightly
different
words, but meaning exactly the same thing.
The more we see that string makers were playing round
with dyes, for
whatever reason, including the one you put forward
(which is
different from that of Martin), the more likely it is
that they would
have come accross the dyeing process of leather, which
is in fact a
loading process. I did not say that thay had done so,
just that it
would be more likely, simply because the recipes for
dyeing leather,
using metal oxides, were being applied in the region at
the centre of
which you could find this powerful string trade guild.
There is no
jump to any conclusion in what I have -just said, that
could be
considered as stretching any evidence.
If two similar types of activity are taking place in the
same area,
there is simply more likelihood that they will meet in
some way, not
certainty, just a greater degree of likelihood.
That is all I said, nothing more or less.
Regards
Anthony
Le 4 juin 08 =E0 22:47, damian dlugolecki a ecrit :
Please visit my web site at www.damianstrings.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "damian dlugolecki"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed
12c/loaded/ Demi-file
I had forgotten about the Dowland quote which
indicates that 'some' strings, not 'all kinds' as Martin
infers
were colored. Since strings were known only by
their place of manufacture, i.e., Romans, Pistoia, Bologna,
etc.
perhaps some enterprising maker added dye to the
bath to distinguish his strings from those of others, or,
to distinguish one type of torsion from another.
But to leap to the conclusion that they were loading
the strings in some way is stretching the evidence
to say the least.
From: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Martin Shepherd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 2:46 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed
12c/loaded/ Demi-file
Le 4 juin 08 =E0 10:40, Martin Shepherd a ecrit :
Dear All,
Dowland (VLL, 1610, sig.Dv.) says:
"Some strings there are which are coloured, out of
which choose the lightest colours, viz. among the Greene
choose the Sea- water, of Red the Carnation, and of Blew
the Watchet."
At this point he is talking about strings in
general, not just bass strings, so it seems that all kinds
of strings were made in different colours. I assume he
recommends the lightest colours because a dark colour
would make it harder to assess the quality of the string,
but he doesn't say so explicitly.
Martin
I have a brown Venice which is just as good as the
lighter yellow
one. I actually prefer it for the appearance, but
not the sound. It
is true that colour is not a proof alone of
anything. Indeed, loading
can also result in various colours, but it sounds
unlikely that this
is exactly what Dowland is speaking about here.
Nevertheless, this does seem to imply that string
makers were
experimenting in dyeing strings, and if that is so
it is even more
likely that they would have thought of using recipes
designed, by the
dyeing trade, for leathers, and these certainly did
include dyeing
with oxides (a form of loading), even if it might
not have been
called so.
As I said previously, the leather dyeing trade in
Italy (where these
recipes were definitely applied) was situated in the
same region from
where the centre of the powerful string guild was
situated (whose
tentacles were to spread to Munich, to Spain, to
Lyons and even Paris).
If the string makers were trying out the various
effects of dyeing
strings, it seems probable that they would have
tried these out. If
they liked the effect they would have commercialized
them.
That does not necessarily mean that they did.
However, Mace, in his time, does say that Pistoys
dyed red, are the
best. He could just be partial to the colour (I do
like the
appearance of those red strings), but it seems more
likely that the
effect the dyeing process had on these strings was
what made him
prefer them. As red dye on leather, was at that time
brought about by
a metal salt, it is at least plausible that an oxide
was involved.
I do agree that we can't just choose to give
importance to Mace, and
just to ignore Dowland, just because the one seems
to confirm what we
are looking for; but there may not be such a
contradiction, if we
consider that there was a period of intense
experimentation in
colouring processes on strings, but that the results
initially, were
not all particularly significant. Confronted with
the variable
results of these experiments, Dowland might have
adopted the
practical method of choice that you are suggesting,
for the reason
you suggest.
However, string colour is not the main argument in
favour of the
existence of loading, although, it is perhaps the
most attractive, as
you can hope to actually see the trace of them in a
painting,
especially if they all happen to be bass register
strings. It is,
indeed, striking when you see the colour of a loaded
string so like
that of a string in a painting. However, a more
conclusive proof,
other than finding a "fossilized" loaded string,
would perhaps be
finding details about a stock of red oxide, in the
inventory of a
string maker's atelier.
Anthony
Best wishes,
Martin
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