Dear Martyn, No, no, I wasn't talking about tension in kilograms. I wrote about equal tension "to touch" which is the same as "to feel" I suppose. It is absolutely correct that the bases would have different and lower tension than trebles. What I suggested however was that the so called low tension which means the tension of lowest bases around 0.9 - 1.0 kg (as Mimmo suggests) would stand in contradiction to the very known statements about tuning the treble string "as high as it goes" (at least for average lutes). General nominal tension about 2.5 kg is not a very low tension yet. Obviously the other possibility is that the guts produced than were of different quality - much more flexible.
Best Jaroslaw -----Original Message----- From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 10:13 AM To: Jarosław Lipski Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé Equal feel is not the same as equal tension where different gauge strings are concerned: thicker strings are stiffer at the same tension and thus 'feel' different requiring a lower tension to 'feel' the same. Whilst not suggesting loaded strings are not a good, or even the best, option, let's not rush to a conclusion that low tension unloaded gut (when plucked close to the bridge) is also not a reasonable option. I'd like to see many more trying this option. On my trial lute I use the lowest basses at 1.5KG/Newtons with a general nominal tension of around 2.5. MH --- On Thu, 5/6/08, Jarosław Lipski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Jarosław Lipski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé > To: "'Lute'" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Thursday, 5 June, 2008, 8:05 PM > Dear Chris, Damian, Martin and Anthony, > > Unfortunately we are still missing some very important > information. Finding > the truth about 16/17 c. strings can be a very difficult > matter because we > lack proof due to its character. In terms of archeology we > have only one > excavation till now - the Mest string which even wasn't > carbon tested. The > iconographical evidence, as Chris pointed, shows rather > that the string > color wasn't dependent on a loading process, but > probably was a side effect > of marketing policies of some string makers wanting to > distinguish their > product (as Rubens portrait seems to suggest). It seems to > me that Damian > gives us a very good point differentiating dyeing and > loading processes. > Dyeing is the process of imparting colour to a textile > material in loose > fibre, yarn, cloth or garment form by treatment with a dye. > Loading involves > insertion of some substance into another. In case of the > strings it would > mean that some metal particles would penetrate deeply the > gut itself, not > only the surface and it has nothing to do with the colour > itself. > So what evidence do we have? > The bass bridge holes on some old lutes that are too small > to contain the > proper diameter gut string. It's been suggested that > this is due to the fact > that the bass strings were loaded (to increase their > specific weight), or > the plain gut of smaller tension (diameter) was used. In > the case of latter > we encounter the problem of impossibility to reconcile the > contradictory > statements written by some old lute scholars - "the > equal tension of the > strings (to touch)" and "tuning the treble string > as high as it goes". This > doesn't look like a very low tension. The situation > complicates the > iconographical evidence from a baroque period which shows > the right hand > position very close to the bridge. Were the strings so > slack, or maybe lute > players liked the harpsichord tone quality which was > commonly accepted > throughout Europe and which would allow them to acquire a > better projection > in an ensemble? How about the general tendency prevailing > from medieval till > romantic era to construct more and more sonorous > instruments which had to > involve changes in soundboard tension? > The fact is we have more questions than the answers. > Meanwhile I think we do > better and make nice music on the variety of strings we > fortunately have at > our disposal. We are musicians, aren't we? > > Best regards > > Jaroslaw > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 3:24 PM > To: Jaros3aw Lipski; 'Lute' > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé > > Lots of good questions that obviously haven't been > satisfactorily answered. One thing that has bothered > me for a while as well is that the paintings often > aren't consistent within themselves. > > Quite often one finds red-ish strings on > non-successive courses, i.e. the 5th course and the > 9th course might be red. As an example: the lute > player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' > CD > (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first > and second courses red but also the BASS string only > of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. > Why? > > > Chris > > > --- Jaros³aw Lipski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > Very often when I listen to such a discussion I > > think what the old guys > > would say about all this string business. In our > > century we have very > > scientific attitude towards music making. But are we > > sure this is all real > > science? We base on paintings and treatises, but can > > we say loaded strings > > are often mentioned in such a writings? Or can we be > > sure that this reddish > > color indicates copper loading? And then, I wonder > > how the artist (not very > > scientific minded creature) would paint a demi-file > > string with copper wire? > > Would he be able to show the whole structure of the > > wiring? Or would he mind > > showing it? Then, we have to look at the painting > > process in general and > > put it into the proper context (not so scientific I > > am afraid). Is the tone > > color absolutely realistic on all paintings from the > > period? Very often I > > find spectrum shifted towards brown, yellow, or red > > side. > > > > This is not to say I exclude loading, but probably I > > would be more careful > > on deciding what is historical and what is not. > > > > > > > > Best wishes > > > > > > -- > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > __________________________________________________________ Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
