Well, neither do I, but this is what he says I am afraid. I understood you very well Martyn. Do check my email. I've never said that you tune your bases to 2.5 kg. But it's not a very low tension yet. Best Jaroslaw
-----Original Message----- From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 12:45 PM To: 'Lute'; Jarosław Lipski Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé I don't know where Mimmo gets the tension of 0.9 - 1.0Kg from, but as an example: take a Dm tuned lute at 68cm (with top course f' tuned as reasonably high as it will go without excessive breakages allows a pitch of A415) with a bass string hole allowing a max string of diameter of 1.4mm gives a string tension of around 1.45Kg. Incidentally, I wasn't saying 2.5Kg was a 'low' tension but that with a nominal tension of 2.5Kg, then basses at 1.5Kg wld be relatively low. By a nominal tension of 2.5Kg, I mean the generality of fingered courses (not the low basses) are around 2.5Kg. MH --- On Fri, 6/6/08, Jarosław Lipski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Jarosław Lipski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé > To: "'Lute'" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Friday, 6 June, 2008, 11:29 AM > Dear Martyn, > > No, no, I wasn't talking about tension in kilograms. I > wrote about equal > tension "to touch" which is the same as "to > feel" I suppose. It is > absolutely correct that the bases would have different and > lower tension > than trebles. What I suggested however was that the so > called low tension > which means the tension of lowest bases around 0.9 - 1.0 kg > (as Mimmo > suggests) would stand in contradiction to the very known > statements about > tuning the treble string "as high as it goes" (at > least for average lutes). > General nominal tension about 2.5 kg is not a very low > tension yet. > Obviously the other possibility is that the guts produced > than were of > different quality - much more flexible. > > Best > > Jaroslaw > > -----Original Message----- > From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 10:13 AM > To: Jarosław Lipski > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed > 12c/loaded/Demi-filé > > > Equal feel is not the same as equal tension where different > gauge strings > are concerned: thicker strings are stiffer at the same > tension and thus > 'feel' different requiring a lower tension to > 'feel' the same. Whilst not > suggesting loaded strings are not a good, or even the best, > option, let's > not rush to a conclusion that low tension unloaded gut > (when plucked close > to the bridge) is also not a reasonable option. I'd > like to see many more > trying this option. On my trial lute I use the lowest > basses at > 1.5KG/Newtons with a general nominal tension of around 2.5. > > MH > > > --- On Thu, 5/6/08, Jarosław Lipski > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > From: Jarosław Lipski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed > 12c/loaded/Demi-filé > > To: "'Lute'" > <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Date: Thursday, 5 June, 2008, 8:05 PM > > Dear Chris, Damian, Martin and Anthony, > > > > Unfortunately we are still missing some very important > > information. Finding > > the truth about 16/17 c. strings can be a very > difficult > > matter because we > > lack proof due to its character. In terms of > archeology we > > have only one > > excavation till now - the Mest string which even > wasn't > > carbon tested. The > > iconographical evidence, as Chris pointed, shows > rather > > that the string > > color wasn't dependent on a loading process, but > > probably was a side effect > > of marketing policies of some string makers wanting to > > distinguish their > > product (as Rubens portrait seems to suggest). It > seems to > > me that Damian > > gives us a very good point differentiating dyeing and > > loading processes. > > Dyeing is the process of imparting colour to a textile > > material in loose > > fibre, yarn, cloth or garment form by treatment with a > dye. > > Loading involves > > insertion of some substance into another. In case of > the > > strings it would > > mean that some metal particles would penetrate deeply > the > > gut itself, not > > only the surface and it has nothing to do with the > colour > > itself. > > So what evidence do we have? > > The bass bridge holes on some old lutes that are too > small > > to contain the > > proper diameter gut string. It's been suggested > that > > this is due to the fact > > that the bass strings were loaded (to increase their > > specific weight), or > > the plain gut of smaller tension (diameter) was used. > In > > the case of latter > > we encounter the problem of impossibility to reconcile > the > > contradictory > > statements written by some old lute scholars - > "the > > equal tension of the > > strings (to touch)" and "tuning the treble > string > > as high as it goes". This > > doesn't look like a very low tension. The > situation > > complicates the > > iconographical evidence from a baroque period which > shows > > the right hand > > position very close to the bridge. Were the strings so > > slack, or maybe lute > > players liked the harpsichord tone quality which was > > commonly accepted > > throughout Europe and which would allow them to > acquire a > > better projection > > in an ensemble? How about the general tendency > prevailing > > from medieval till > > romantic era to construct more and more sonorous > > instruments which had to > > involve changes in soundboard tension? > > The fact is we have more questions than the answers. > > Meanwhile I think we do > > better and make nice music on the variety of strings > we > > fortunately have at > > our disposal. We are musicians, aren't we? > > > > Best regards > > > > Jaroslaw > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 3:24 PM > > To: Jaros3aw Lipski; 'Lute' > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed > 12c/loaded/Demi-filé > > > > Lots of good questions that obviously haven't been > > satisfactorily answered. One thing that has bothered > > me for a while as well is that the paintings often > > aren't consistent within themselves. > > > > Quite often one finds red-ish strings on > > non-successive courses, i.e. the 5th course and the > > 9th course might be red. As an example: the lute > > player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux > Gaultier' > > CD > > (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the > first > > and second courses red but also the BASS string only > > of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. > > Why? > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > --- Jaros³aw Lipski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > > > > > Very often when I listen to such a discussion I > > > think what the old guys > > > would say about all this string business. In our > > > century we have very > > > scientific attitude towards music making. But are > we > > > sure this is all real > > > science? We base on paintings and treatises, but > can > > > we say loaded strings > > > are often mentioned in such a writings? Or can we > be > > > sure that this reddish > > > color indicates copper loading? And then, I > wonder > > > how the artist (not very > > > scientific minded creature) would paint a > demi-file > > > string with copper wire? > > > Would he be able to show the whole structure of > the > > > wiring? Or would he mind > > > showing it? Then, we have to look at the > painting > > > process in general and > > > put it into the proper context (not so scientific > I > > > am afraid). Is the tone > > > color absolutely realistic on all paintings from > the > > > period? Very often I > > > find spectrum shifted towards brown, yellow, or > red > > > side. > > > > > > This is not to say I exclude loading, but > probably I > > > would be more careful > > > on deciding what is historical and what is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best wishes > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information > at > > > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Sent from Yahoo! Mail. > A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html __________________________________________________________ Sent from Yahoo! Mail. 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