Dear Mimmo and All,
If I have understood you correctly, there is a sort of
contradiction : as gut becomes thicker, it must be treated to make
it more flexible (higher twist and possibly softening chemicals), or
else it becomes inharmonic. The more flexible it is, for a given
diameter, however, the less tension it can stand (the Breaking Index
drops). Thus it is not the thickness itself, but the way thick gut is
treated that makes it break quicker than thin gut?
You say the Index of a modern gut string is 260 Hz/m, but this is
only true true for the range of lute 1st string gauges.
"I mean 38 till 46 mm (more or less), where strings are made with a
very low twist and gut is made harder by chemicals."
Does this mean that it is possible to substitute say a 44 treble
anywhere where it is safe to use a 42 treble, keeping exactly the
same breaking point in Hz; or does your "more or less" imply that
even for "38 till 46 mm" there will be a slight difference in twist
or hardening, which could mean the 44 would be less strong than the 42?
Of course I realize that such a substitution would increase the
playing tension, which may or may not be an advantage.
Regards
Anthony
with a 44 treble
Le 18 févr. 09 à 07:21, Mimmo Peruffo a écrit :
Hello guys,
Just an observation: the suggested average of the Breacking
Index of a
modern gut string is 260 Hz/m. However, the full range of
modern lute
strings ranging between 240- 300 Hz.mt.
This is true for the range of lute 1st string gauges. I mean 38
till
46 mm (more or less), were strings are made with a very low
twist and
gut is made harder by chemicals. The Breacking Index drop in the
case
that we are speacking of thicker 1st strings, were they are
made with
more twist than the lute chantarelles.
Example: on the 1st bass gamba strings the Breacking Index drop
of a
semitone-tone than the lute 1st strings.
In fact this is function of some technological things: the twist
quantity and the use (or not) of some substances ables to do gut
harder
etc etc.
If we go in the range of the violone 1st strings the breacking
Index
drop again and again because such strings are made very very
high twist
and without any chemical tretment able to do gut stiffer. This
is why,
in my wiew, the calculated Working Indexes (the product of the
string
scale X the supposed frequencies of the 1st strings) of the bowed
instruments in the Praetorous tables drop step- by -step when the
instrument became longer. So on Violins we are in the average
of 210
HZ/mt while, on violones, we drop to arround 180 Hz/m only.
Ciao
Mimmo
alexander ha scritto:
No one seems to object, and the talk continues as if the very
people that gave u
s all the amazing instruments we play, were totally ignorant as far
as the oh, s
o stupid "tune almost to the breaking point" line goes. The simple
truth of the
matter is that any string made of the same material will break at
the same pitch
, no matter its' diameter, as long as the string length is the
same. Some here s
till remember Eph Segerman?..
"The stress on the string (represented by S) is the tension divided by
the cross-sectional area, so S=T/A. The tensile strength of a material
is defined as the stress at breaking (which we can represent by SB).
Then the breaking frequency, represented by fB becomes: fB =
(1/2L)sqrt(SB/r). This demonstrates that the breaking pitch is
inversely proportional to the string stop."
In the formula, (as can not be seen here, unfortunately) the invert
relation is
only between the pitch, length and the breaking point stress.
Diameter plays no
role. All this means a very simple truth - all the instruments of
the same mensu
ra tuned close to the breaking point of a given material, will have
the same pit
ch, to the same degree as an organ pipe of the same length and
diameter will pro
duce the same pitch, be it in France or England. I hazard to say
that, among pro
fessionals who used "no rotten strings" and preferred particular
strings made by
the same makers and even at particular time of the year, the pitch
standard was
no worse then nowadays.
alexander
On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 18:29:32 -0800
howard posner [1]<[email protected]> wrote:
On Feb 17, 2009, at 5:43 PM, [2][email protected] wrote:
How many of us really follow this "fundamental of lute stringing"
today? We tune our instruments to arbitrarily agreed upon pitches
like 415, 392, 440 etc because its practical. If we were to do the
truly historical thing, Jeff's G lute would be at 449, Joe's at
412, Tina's at 463 and Bill's at 398.
That wouldn't have worked in 1610 either. They all had to use an
agreed pitch if they were going to play together, unless they were
into the whole John Cage thing.
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