Dear Jaroslaw and All
If they were neither loaded nor wound than they
must
have been dyed. This would solve the problem because the
coloration
differences would be of aestethic nature or maybe
manufacture's
trade mark.
Perhaps, it is more than aesthetic, if we consider what
Alexander has
to say about his experiments with oil paint.
However, I wonder whether mild loading could not also have
been used
on other strings than basses, just to help conservation.
Mace tells us about rotten strings:
"I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very
good; yet,
but seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness,
or of
the decay of the string."
This must have been common problem. Perhaps a mild loading
could help
conserve strings (admittedly, Mace does also say that red
strings are
often rotten).
It seems possible that loading of soundboards with Borax and
salts
(Strads. etc), which results in a denser better sounding
table, could
have originally been used to prevent infestation, but it
was then
realized it improved the sound (see earlier discussion on
this list).
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn10686
The only mention we have of this process from the time, does
not come
form lutemakers, but from Bernard Palissy, who spent much of
his life
trying to pierce the secrets of guilds to which he did not
belong, ''
salts improve the voice of all sorts of musical
instruments".
In any case, it is not because Barbieri did not find
evidence of
loading when researching Rome string makers that no such
loading took
place.
Again Mace mentions "There is another sort of strings, which
they
call Pistoy basses, which I conceive are none other than
thick Venice-
Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red
colour."
So perhaps, if loaded basses existed they would have been
from
Pistoia, Bologne, etc, and not Rome.
Perhaps, also if loaded strings were often red, and at the
same time
of high repute, other makers of lesser strings, might have
also dyed
theirs red.
to cash in on their prestige (i agree, I am just adding to
the
speculation).
There are however, some more convincing examples that do
look like
loading.
On the same Art site, I saw another Caravaggio painting
including a
lute with just one red string, and it was the 7th. Now this
might
well be a loaded 7c-D.
http://www.caravaggio.rai.it/eng/opere.swf?currentImage=3
That looks quite like how my 7c lute was when I just had one
loaded
string on 7-D (except of course my string was red-brown).
A pure gut 7c bass string should be so much thicker
(according to
Gamut D-7, 60mm, for 2.6Kg at 440Hz, gives 1.80mm)
However, with a painting we are never quite so sure that the
artist
is not just sketching-in the strings.
Nevertheless, there is such detail here, just see the frets,
for
example; so why would the painter have just sketched the
bass string?
Looking at my photo, it is difficult to tell whether the
string is
loaded or just coloured, unless you take account of the
relative
thinness.
http://tinyurl.com/cyvnyo
Caravaggio with slightly different colours:
http://tinyurl.com/cbsjac
I don't think Mimmo's research is a just for historical
correctness (for its own sake), but to resolve the
problems
(ancient and modern) inherent in using gut for each voice
(Trebles, Meanes, Basses) by specific chemical treatment,
twisting, twining and loading techniques, so as to obtain
a
homogenous passage accross the voices, to avoid the
inharmonicity
of thicker Meane strings and lower octaves, and to
resolve the
contradictiory need for short trebles and very long
basses
(either by loading, or by using extensions for the
basses, or a
combination of the two).
And this is what I am after. I want to learn from Old Ones
as much
as possible, but than I'd like to choose my own way.
I think historical research should be used to open up
new-old
possibilities of approaching the music, not to shut down any
other
personal investigation. It should just help us to refine our
choices.
Indeed, at first, it was just a modern problem I was trying
to solve
when I adopted Venices on 5c and 4c to eliminate a break in
the flow
across the "Meanes" on my 7c lute (caused by having a Lyons
on 5c and
a simple HT on 4c). I had no idea at that point, that
Dowland and
Mace had "defined" such a category as "Meanes" for which the
same
string type should be used. Later I realized that I had just
redisocovered it for myself.
Then on ordering an 11c lute, I was made aware of the modern
severe
'intonation" problems that I was told would not fail to
occur if I
adopted pure gut basses, on a Baroque lute. I was warned by
many to
adopt some sort of wirewound or a very very long string
length (not
really suitable for French Baroque). Gimped strings seemed
the only
way out, if I wanted to use gut, until Mimmo's loaded
strings were
announced. This is a Baroque lute problem, but it is the
same today
as it must have been then.
How can you have bass strings in pure gut on such a small
lute as
Charles Mouton's (or the Vienna Frey) and not have severe
intonation
problems?
Gamut calculates C-11, at 66.5mm, 392Hz at 2K6 gives 2.04mm
Notice how thin they appear on the de Troy painting, and
this small
diameter is confirmed by the small historic bass string lute
holes
found on similar lutes now in museums.
http://www.aquilacorde.com/Mouton.jpg
My 11c lute with red loaded Venice strings
http://tinyurl.com/b3olq7
Lindberg's brown first generation loaded strings.
http://www.aquilacorde.com/Lindberg.jpg
By then I was very aware of the historic issues, but also
the
practical ones (which really are the same in essence).
The ancients had so much more experience with gut than we
do, so any
snippits of information we can find can help us even now.
My next tweak will be trying out Venice twines for the lower
octaves
(7c down). Previously, I was just looking to solve a modern
problem,
and found out that perhaps this corresponded to a historical
solution. This time I am going to take Mace's advice, with
no idea of
what it will give me.
Mace states one should use the same string type for the
lower octaves
of a Baroque lute as you use for the Meanes : 4c and 5c.
Well actually he names the strings, Venice Catlines, but I
am just
taking this advice to mean, use the same type that work well
on your
Meanes.
However, I do think there are far more problems to solve
with the gut
stringing of a Baroque lute than with a Renaissance one.
Nevertheless, I agree entirely with you. It would be such a
pity if
every lutensist adopted exactly the same solutions to all
these
problems.
How much more interesting from the point of view of tone and
texture,
if players personal research come up with varied solutions.
That Ed Martin with Dan Larson refine the Gimped solution to
basses,
while Satoh and others develop their low tension hypothesis,
will, I
hope, result in less standardization, not more.
Even if Gimped strings were not around at that time (French
Baroque),
and low tension strings do not actually allow such a small
diameter
as shown by historic lute holes.
I still do hope to hear more lutenists adopting the loaded
solution, and perhaps demifile for later Baroque.
This has to be a personal choice for each lutenist, and some
clearly feel that strings contribute such a small part to
their
overall performance, that synthetics will do, or are even
better. Not
that they are without their own problems: at least for
French
Baroque: lack of homogeneity, tonal problems, lack of
warmth, and
loss of clarity; for which the lutensist may well be able
to
compensate with the right technique and touch.
Mimmo's loaded strings, for example, can allow us to use a
fairly
short 11c Baroque lute, such as that shown in the Charles
Mouton
portrait without resorting to wirewounds or Gimped
strings, and
without poisoning ourselves. This probably gives tonal
shades
closer to those on Ch.M's lute, but not exactly those of
his
particular loaded strings, and of course his lute may
well have
been an ancient Bologna one, giving its own tonal
characteristics
to the whole.
And this is but one factor in a performance of Charles
Mouton's
music. Some may consider it small in comparison with a
deep
understanding of his rhetoric, or the fact that we can not
hope
to have his touch and musical ear, but it can be one
element in
coming closer to understanding the music of the period;
Well, we will never be able to copy performances from the
past,
and I don't think this is what we should look for. The
musician
each time has to create something anew because the Music is
the
living art.
It is the sort of contradictory status of a performer of
early music.
We are no longer steeped in a tradition that both constrains
and
frees us within its limits (or even to push at its limits
and
innovate). How much each modern lutenist wants to stay
within those
limits (if he can be sure what they are) is a matter of his
own
personal choice as an artist and a result of his own
research and
taste, but is he in a position to truly innovate, to create
new
rules, within that tradition? Perhaps, that might
differentiate the
modern interpreter from the performer-composer of the time.
Regards
Anthony
PS I know you are aware of most of these arguments, but I
see new
names in this thread, who perhaps are not.
PPS I remember you saying that the most important thing was
not
whether loaded strings were historic, but whether they
worked.
About the quality of Mimmo's loaded strings, I will just
quote DvO:
"Loaded gut basses do not fray or break as gut trebles
tend to do, and do not wear out as wound strings do. (I
suppose that
even makes them cheaper than wound strings, in the long
run.) They
give no significant tuning troubles. And guess what, they're
designed
to sound like loaded guts!
By the way, they are a pleasure to play and sound really,
really good! "
Le 23 févr. 09 à 19:55, JarosÅ,aw Lipski a écrit :
Dear Anthony,
but DvE must have used it, and what about all those
athletes who
use dangerous substances to improve their performances?
David probably used it just to hear how it would sound
like, but as
I found on his site, he stated he never really dare to use
it.
As for sport, well, than we have to consider if we want to
develop
in that direction.
Is this similar? It is the above lead oxide ones. To me,
they
look very similar to the ones in the painting:
No, in MM the strings are just of copper color neither red
as
David's nor brown as yours.
However, Mimmo thinks the long basses may be too thick to
have
been loaded. He rather suspects that the 6th might be
loaded, as
it is equal in size to the 5th. However, this is a
painting. Can
we be sure the thickness of those basses is accurate. To
me the
colour is very much that of lead oxide.
If they were neither loaded nor wound than they must have
been
dyed. This would solve the problem because the coloration
differences would be of aestethic nature or maybe
manufacture's
trade mark.
I think there are perhaps reasons why full wirewounds
might be
problematic to make at that time, but in any case no
source
mentions them.
This is correct, at least we don't know of such a source,
although
we can't exclued possibility of finding some new evidence.
I don't think Mimmo's research is a just for historical
correctness (for its own sake), but to resolve the
problems
(ancient and modern) inherent in using gut for each voice
(Trebles, Meanes, Basses) by specific chemical treatment,
twisting, twining and loading techniques, so as to obtain
a
homogenous passage accross the voices, to avoid the
inharmonicity
of thicker Meane strings and lower octaves, and to
resolve the
contradictiory need for short trebles and very long
basses
(either by loading, or by using extensions for the
basses, or a
combination of the two).
And this is what I am after. I want to learn from Old Ones
as much
as possible, but than I'd like to choose my own way.
Mimmo's loaded strings, for example, can allow us to use a
fairly
short 11c Baroque lute, such as that shown in the Charles
Mouton
portrait without resorting to wirewounds or Gimped
strings, and
without poisoning ourselves. This probably gives tonal
shades
closer to those on Ch.M's lute, but not exactly those of
his
particular loaded strings, and of course his lute may
well have
been an ancient Bologna one, giving its own tonal
characteristics
to the whole.
And this is but one factor in a performance of Charles
Mouton's
music. Some may consider it small in comparison with a
deep
understanding of his rhetoric, or the fact that we can not
hope
to have his touch and musical ear, but it can be one
element in
coming closer to understanding the music of the period;
Well, we will never be able to copy performances from the
past,
and I don't think this is what we should look for. The
musician
each time has to create something anew because the Music is
the
living art.
All the best
Jaroslaw
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