Yes indeed. The human ear can detect these small variations in pitch.
A gut string stretched over time will lose much of it's yield strength
which equates somewhat to elasticity. So even a minor push against
these limits will cause a significant change in pitch.
Damian
I am extremely sceptical about this claim, if only for the
insignificant change in pitch which would be achieved by an additional
depression of say 0.5mm (ie from stopping the string without bottoming
to the fingerboard and fully depressed) . By way of an example: the
increase in string length of a 64cm string depressed at half its length
by 0.5mm is only about 0.0008mm! (Pythagorus theorem: square root of
[320x320+0.5x0.5]) ie an increase of a mere 0.000125% ..............
can any human ear detect this?
MH
--- On Wed, 18/3/09, damian dlugolecki <dam...@teleport.com> wrote:
From: damian dlugolecki <dam...@teleport.com>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Hi guys, nylon frets...
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>,
lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 18 March, 2009, 5:17 PM
One touches the strings with much less pressure than say, the
guitar.
There is no need to push the string down so that it touches the
fingerboard. I find that I can adjust my touch to compensate for
notes
that with more pressure, would sound sharp. When I first
encountered
the need to fret my lute with thicker frets I was a bit alarmed as
well, but believe me, playing a lute with thicker frets has no
disadvantages whatever. I consulted with the maker, Andy Rutherford
at
this time and he agreed that the lute played and sounded beautifully
and did not want to tamper with nut any more than what he had done.
So
I joined this thread to counter the notion that somehow large frets
are
a bad thing.
DD
Not really true that thicker frets have 'no drawback' - the use of
thinner frets (but still graduated by the same amount from lowest to
highest) allows the lute to be set more 'fine' than with thicker
frets
ie the distance required to depress the string to the fingerboard is
less. Conversely, if one so desired, the use of even thicker frets
(but
still with the same amount of overall graduation) would result in a
very significant increase in the distance required to depress a
string
and concomitant difficulties of execution.
MH
--- On Wed, 18/3/09, damian dlugolecki <[1]dam...@teleport.com>
wrote:
From: damian dlugolecki <[2]dam...@teleport.com>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Hi guys, nylon frets...
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>,
[4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 18 March, 2009, 3:47 AM
The projection of the string is determined by the height of the
nut
and
the holes in the bridge. If the neck has a set or slight warp,
thicker
frets will be called for and that thickness will be determined by
the
projection of the strings.
I used to use much thinner frets but as Dan Winheld has noted,
there
is
no drawback whatever to using thicker frets.
Cordially,
Damian
Why don't you try a much thinner 9th fret (say 0.50mm) which not
only
fits with Dowland's fretting advice (the principal historic
source
of
fret sizes) but would also enable you to have smaller lower
frets,
say
down to 0.90mm and thereby set the lute 'fine'?
MH
--- On Tue, 17/3/09, damian dlugolecki
<[1][1][5]dam...@teleport.com>
wrote:
From: damian dlugolecki <[2][2][6]dam...@teleport.com>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Hi guys, nylon frets...
To: "Daniel Winheld" <[3][7]dwinh...@comcast.net>,
[4][8]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Tuesday, 17 March, 2009, 3:52 AM
"Using the thinnest frets that you can get away with" is a basic
premise for fretting, but there are many lutes where the neck has
set
(but hopefully not twisted)
where heavy frets are called for. My baroque lute represents
just
such
an instance where everything is fine except that much thicker
frets
are
called for and more
care in selecting sizes to taper up to the 10th fret. Here is
the
fret
scheme for my lute:
frets
1,2,3 1.25 mm
4,5 1.20 "
6 1.10 "
7 1.05 "
8 1.00 "
9 .95 "
10 .85 "
So if you find you need heavier frets, do not be alarmed. My
lute
plays beautifully, there is no undue wear on the strings on the
finger
board,
and everything is in tune. You may have to invest in some fret
gut,
but like tuning, it's part of the job.
Damian
Please visit my web site at www.damianstrings.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Winheld"
<[3][5][9]dwinh...@comcast.net>
To: <[4][6][10]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 11:57 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Hi guys, nylon frets...
> Dana- this seems like excellent advice & cautions in regard to
nylon
> frets. In line with that, I would also advise noting what the
neck
> and fingerboard are made of- ebony fingerboard with ebony
veneered
> neck would seem to be best; in any case the hardest, toughest
woods
> possible would be in order.
> Anything else, especially if the lute is of some value, could
be
> counter productive so why not go with the easier, safer, and in
any
> case better sounding traditional alternative?
>
> That said, I would also advise the thinnest frets that you
could
get
> away with. Dowland's advice seems appropriate here; he starts
with
> 4th course for the first two frets (.85 - .90 mm), next two of
3rd
> course size, (.70-ish) 5th & 6th fret, 2nd course; and the rest
> trebles.
>
> Also single frets would be best; while the traditional doubles
are
> rarely used by modern lutenists anyway, only gut doubles will
"bed
> down" properly for cleanest sound. Attempting to get enough
tension
> for tightness, and for the fret to lie flat near the
fingerboard
> edges at the first fret position with 1.15 nylon would take two
> gorillas with vice grip pliers. And a titanium neck with carbon
> fingerboard.
>
> Dan
>
>
>> Nylon can be made to work, but it even more of a pain in the
proverbial
>> than gut. It is stronger than most neck woods and will leave
an
>> indentation; some like that, it marks where the fret goes.
Others
dislike
>> it for the same reason, get it wrong and you are stuck. The
knots
are
>> prickly, and burning them makes noxious smoke which you really
shouldnt
>> inhale.
>>
>> Nylon is probably longer lasting than gut, but not forever, I
have
had
>> nylon frets break.
>>
>> I switched to gut a long time ago and far prefer it.
>>
>> The first fret is particularly challenging as you have so
little
room
>> above it to use in stretching the knot tighter; I always found
pliers
>> necesary on the first fret; leave the ends long enough that
you
can
grip
>> away from the knot, then wrap a length around the jaws, you
dont
want to
>> be squashing the nylon to get a grip anywhere near the knot.
>> --
>> Dana Emery
>
> --
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
>
[5][7][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. mailto:[8][12]dam...@teleport.com
2. mailto:[9][13]dam...@teleport.com
3.
[10][14]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dwinh...@comcas
t.net
4.
[11][15]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmou
th.edu
5. [12][16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1.
[17]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dam...@teleport.com
2.
[18]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dam...@teleport.com
3.
[19]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dwinh...@comcast.net
4.
[20]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
5.
[21]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dwinh...@comcast.net
6.
[22]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
7. [23]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
8.
[24]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dam...@teleport.com
9.
[25]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dam...@teleport.com
10.
[26]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dwinh...@comcast.net
11.
[27]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
12. [28]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dam...@teleport.com
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dam...@teleport.com
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dam...@teleport.com
6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dam...@teleport.com
7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dwinh...@comcast.net
8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dwinh...@comcast.net
10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dam...@teleport.com
13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dam...@teleport.com
14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dwinh...@comcast.net
15. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
17. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dam...@teleport.com
18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dam...@teleport.com
19. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dwinh...@comcast.net
20. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
21. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dwinh...@comcast.net
22. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
23. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
24. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dam...@teleport.com
25. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dam...@teleport.com
26. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dwinh...@comcast.net
27. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
28. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
