Pe= rhaps, it's a matter of dictionaries, indeed. Not sure for English archlute= , but Erzlaute was defined to mean what we'd today call theorboed lutes by = Sachs. Seem to remember he even invented the name. Will look it up when I'm= back home tonight. As for booklets, Erzlaute isn't very frequen= tly mentioned at all because there aren't many recordings with arciliuto, l= iuto attiorbato, archlute available over here. All theorbo players I know w= ill call their instrument Theorbe or Chitarrone, certainly not Erzlaute. Respectfully, too, Mathias -----Original-Nac= hricht----- > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute > Datum: Fri, 10= Jul 2009 10:48:38 +0200 > Von: David Tayler <vidan...@sbcglobal= .net> > An: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" <[email protected]>= ; > Although I will of course defer to my German > co= lleagues in matters of native language, > I have used the term for = 35 years in Germany with no problems. > If you take a few hundred C= Ds from the last > thirty years you will find that the term is > usually used for archlute. Not always, but very frequently. >= You will also find from the same period that a > proportion of the= se CDs also conflates the terms > theorbo, chitarrone, and archlute= , so there can't > be a definite meaning for the terms. > H= istorically, of course, the term theorbo could also refer to an > a= rchlute. > Naturally, the CDs could be wrong, and they often &= gt; are in the disposition of the instruments. > This is understand= able, however, since many > unabridged German dictionaries give Erz= laute as a > synonym for Bogenlaute (which is rarely used) and > translate it as archlute, not theorbo. > For CDs that are ori= ginally in English or French > those who rely on these dictionaries= for CD notes > and translations thus keep the term current. &= gt; In addition, musicological papers as well as > Festival booklet= s from major festivals use not > only these dictionaries but also t= he Grove > Dictionary as well, and the Grove defines, > rig= htly of wrongly, erzlaute as archlute. > > So it could be = that there is a difference between > the written use of the word an= d the spoken use of > the word, but of course the word mainly appea= rs in printed material. > > Respectfully, > dt > > > At 01:16 AM 7/10/2009, you wrote: > > > "Jerzy Zak" <[email protected]> schrieb: > >= ; > That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays: "teorbierte > > > laute" (or close to that spelling), > > > <= br />> > > > It's become part of the history of research.= With Pohlmann (ch. 7), > > Theorbenlaute was synonymous to theo= rbierte Laute. According to his > > definition, Theorbenlauten w= ere lutes with first pegboxes bent back > > and second pegboxes = attached in the direction of the neck. > > > > If I'= m not mistaken, that's rather what we'd call double-headed > > l= utes today. > > > > To complete confusion, he added:= "Theorbierte Lauten werden auch > > Knickhalslauten genannt, di= e auf dem Wirbelkasten links und/oder > > rechts Aufsaetze fuer = die hoechsten und tiefsten Saiten haben." > > Theorbierte Lauten= are also called Knickhalslauten (lutes with > > bent-back necks= ), which have riders on their pegboxes on the left > > and(or on= the right for the highest or lowest strings. > > > >= ; Back then, I stood in awe, completely puzzled by this sophisticated = > > "definition". My, o my. > > > > >= > > the untranslatable to Polish "re-entrant". > > = > > It hasn't been appropiately translated to German, either. Some ha= ve > > tried ruecklaeufig (downward, falling, katabatic, recurre= nt, > > retrogressive), but in German that term evokes notions o= f someone > > running back, and doesn't make clear that the _tun= ing_ is sort of > > "coming back". > > > >= ; Mathias > > > > > > > On 2009-07-09= , at 22:14, Mathias Roesel wrote: > > > > > &= gt; > And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as >= ; > > > sweeping IMHO, > > > > neglecting differe= nces between the liuto attiorbato, the > > > > arciliuto a= nd the archlute. > > > > > > > > Someone= put a language link to it into > > > > http://de.wikipedi= a.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is misleading. > > > > The G= erman term Erzlaute was meant to be generic. > > > > > > > > Mathias > > > > > > > = > "Jerzy Zak" <[email protected]> schrieb: > > > &g= t; > > > > > David, > > > > > Than= ks for that. > > > > > > > > > > B= esides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the > > >= > > "latest semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites > > > > > > > > > ". I'm absolutely = > > > > > not qualified to comment on that, but would love t= o read > > > > > other's -- just to remind it's still "= untouched" by other > > > > > pluckers. Perhaps some lu= te exemple > > > > > > > > > ?? = > > > > > > > > > > J > > &g= t; > > _____ > > > > > > > > > = > > > > > > On 2009-07-09, at 20:33, David Tayler w= rote: > > > > > > > > > > > Arc= hlute > > > > > > dt > > > > > &= gt; > > > > > > At 11:29 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote: > > > > > > > What is an "Erzlaute"? > >= > > > > > The other instruments pecified on the page are "o= rgan, > > > > > > > harpsichord, violins, cello, = guitar, theorbE". > > > > > > > > > &= gt; > > > > jz > > > > > > > &g= t; > > > > > > > To get on or off th= is list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/= ~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
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