I'm not at all sure of what lessons we can learn for lute bellies from Micheman's experiments with violins; I just thought that this was a slightly different perspective on the question of soundboard treatment which might be of interest.
Michelman is very persuaded by his own work and especially by the linseed oil treatment (he calls it 'preliminary treatment') and came to firmly believe that this was largely the 'secret' of the Old Ones' (esp Strad's)varnish. One problem, as I see it, is that which you touch on by asking at what stage the treatment was undertaken; it's clear that he flooded his test violins (all made by the same American maker) with linseed oil - so much so that the oil penetrated throughout the wood. He did not report any glue failures (eg on front or back joints or bass bar) but it would certainly loom large in my mind when considering flooding a lute belly and the possibility for increased glue failure of the bars. In short, I dunno.. In practice I use stand oil (ie partly oxidised linseed oil) which is very viscous and does not penetrate much below the surface of the wood, as a sort of sealer - it certainly brings the grain to perfection and provides a matt and hard (once oxidised) dirt resitant surface. In lieu of any firm evidence on what the early lute makers used (if anything at all) I think this is a real possibilty. The other historical alternative I've seen suggested is using tempera - basically an egg/linseed oil emulsion as painters use(d) - seem to run into problems of discolouration over time where the hand comes into contact with the belly (esp the little finger). Finally, I think we perhaps need more evidence from the chemical analysis of historical instruments before assuming salting is the alluring 'secret' for stringed instrument soundboards but, of course, this runs into problems of non-destructive testing and how to get such samples (tho' I suspect very small fragments from 'restored' instruments would be helpful - if they are ever retained......). Martyn --- On Fri, 18/9/09, Anthony Hind <[email protected]> wrote: > From: Anthony Hind <[email protected]> > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack spruce > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]> > Cc: [email protected] > Date: Friday, 18 September, 2009, 4:37 PM > Dear Martyn > This seems to be the > link to Michelman's book on violin > varnishes: > http://tinyurl.com/l2p2ja > > I suppose discussion on this question within the pages , > here, would > actually be among those addressed to and by lute makers, > rather than > here at Baroque Lute, but I will give a sweep through all > the old pages. > > > After many years I looked again at my copy of > Michelman yesterday > > and see that my memory missed the main reason he > thought the tone > > improved by linseed oil - not just, or mainly, the > loss in weight > > but more the amalgamation of the wood (again tho' I > think rather > > like the salt 'hardening' of the wood). Linseed oil > dries of course > > into a hard film not at all like machinery grease > etc. > > I should of course read > Michelman's book before asking this > question, and perhaps, I would find the answer, however, > here goes: > > I suppose the linseed oil treatment is made after the table > is > installed on the instrument, and not before (or there might > be > problems having the hide-glue adhere to it)? If my > supposition is > correct, would the instrument maker be able to cut the wood > thinner > just by taking account of the future effect of the linseed, > once > applied, or wouldn't it just be used to improve the sound > by > hardening the wood whatever the chosen thickness? > > I think this could be significant, because Mimmo tells me > that a > number of old instruments he has measured, have > surprisingly hard, > but also thin, soundboards. > If the thinness were the aim of the luthier, it could imply > a "pre" > rather than a "post" treatment, (although, as Dana Emery > pointed out, > this could conceivably be the result of accidental, rather > than > deliberate treatment), but this might point to salts (or > chemicals) > rather than linseed. > > Mimmo mentions a Stradivari cello soundboard that was only > 3.0 mm > thick. He tells me the soundboard was "quite flat" (I think > he means > undistorted), and he finds it difficult to think this could > be > untreated Spruce. Personally, I am no specialist, so > I don't know > whether 3mm for a cello is unusually thin. > > He also mentions Antonio de Torres guitar-soundboards > that he was > able to open and hold, saying they were always so thin and, > at the > same time hard to bend. Although the fan bracing is the > same as used > today. He also said the Spruce is both hard and brown in > colour. > These two qualities, he can reproduce, by applying old > chemical > recipes to the the Spruce. He sees this same brown colour > in many > paintings of earlier instruments. > > I am wondering whether browness is typical of Linseed > treatment > (Mimmo says there is no die present), and whether such a > treatment > (once the board is mounted) could account for the thinness > of > soundboards simply by some chemical bonding effect? > > Apparently, Navygary's chemical analysis > does show that the spruce > soundboard's of Guarneri's instruments were deeply > impregnated with > alum, silicate, copper etc. although these substances are > not present > in the natural growing wood. > > Mimmo has, in fact, found two 18th century recipes (one > early, one > mid) explaining how to make wood "as hard as stone" by > applying > chemicals, and a luthier friend of his tried them out > making two > guitars; the results, he says, were amazing, the sound > superb. > > He himself, was able to improve the sound speed of Spruce > from 5,400 > mt/sec to 6,350 mt/ sec (almost the same as that of carbon > fibre). In > the cross grain the speed reached 2900 mt/sec, from > an initial value > of 2300 mt/sec. > > I suppose chemical treatment does not > preclude the use of Linseed, > except that the salts do already replace the natural sap > residues (as > Michelman says Linseed can do). On the other hand, the > linseed could > form an excellent protection against the acid traces left > by fingers. > In any case, the use of chemicals by some makers would not > preclude > the use of Linseed by others. > > However, I do recall contradictory > points of view, relating to > varnishes on lute tables. Some saying that the less > treatment the > better. > Indeed, my Renaissance lute has just a slight "varnish" > that seems > quite soft, and indeed remained sticky for a few months, > and gives > practically no protection from skin acids, while my Baroque > lute has > a hard to the touch "varnish", which gives great protection > (linseed?). > Apparently my Renaissance lute maker is in favour of the > "less is > best" school, but perhaps my Baroque lute maker did use > Linseed oil. > Both lutes do have good, if different, sound qualities. > > Thanks for pointing out the Google book, I will definitely > read this. > Regards > Anthony > > > Le 17 sept. 09 à 10:12, Martyn Hodgson a écrit : > > > > > Dear Anthony, > > > > After many years I looked again at my copy of > Michelman yesterday > > and see that my memory missed the main reason he > thought the tone > > improved by linseed oil - not just, or mainly, the > loss in weight > > but more the amalgamation of the wood (again tho' I > think rather > > like the salt 'hardening' of the wood). Linseed oil > dries of course > > into a hard film not at all like machinery grease etc. > Indeed Stand > > Oil (ie partly oxidised Linseed oil) will dry to a > hard film which > > can be buffed in a matter of days: it's been suggested > that this > > was used on the bellies of lutes and would also act as > a sealer and > > I recall this was discussed some time ago and > presumably can be > > found in the archives. > > > > Martyn > > > > > > PS I've just googled the book and amazingly see that > the work has > > been scanned by Google books so you can read it > online...... > > > > --- On Wed, 16/9/09, Anthony Hind <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > >> From: Anthony Hind <[email protected]> > >> Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack spruce > >> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]>, > baroque- > >> [email protected] > >> Date: Wednesday, 16 September, 2009, 8:54 AM > >> Dear Martyn > >> Le 15 sept. 09 à 16:51, Martyn Hodgson a écrit > : > >> > >>> Dear Anthony, > >>> > >>> I don't know if you are aware of the > pioneering work > >> on treatment of violin wood which Joseph Michelman > undertook > >> in the US during the 1940s: his work was published > (VIOLIN > >> VARNISH) in 1946. > >> > >> No, I heard of the more recent work relating to > salt > >> loading of Strads by the Hungarian, Nagyvary > >> http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn10686 > >> http://tinyurl.com/62juy9 > >> Presumably, he was basing his research on the > ideas of > >> Michelman. > >> > >> Mimmo also carried out similar research, noting > that > >> metallic salts replace the sap compounds in the > wood and > >> make it as hard as stone. > >> The earliest reference, I believe to treating > instruments > >> with salts, is in a work by Bernard Palissy. > >> > >> Thank you for telling me about this work by > Michelman, I > >> would indeed be interested in reading it. > >> I seem to remember when I was a child that cricket > bats > >> were soaked in linseed oil, and that if this was > not done > >> they would crack almost immediately. I just > assumed that > >> the oils somehow made the wood more supple (less > brittle), > >> but I didn't think harder, > >> but presumably, if the process is similar to that > discussed > >> by Michelman, it should result both in a more > flexibilty and > >> a harder wood. > >> > >> Could this process be attempted on a completed > lute > >> (similarly to the cricket bat)? I am not > suggesting one > >> should try, just wondering. > >> > >> In the case of the salts, I think the wood becomes > more > >> dense, and so this allows it to be cut thinner, > while it > >> sounds as though linseed > >> might simply make the wood lighter (whatever its > >> thickness), but perhaps I have not completely > grasped the > >> concept. > >> > >> I will certainly have to read Michelman before > liberally > >> applying the linseed! > >> Anthony > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >>> I believe Michelman was a chemist and > certainly his > >> book demonstrates a rigourous appoach to violin > varnish and > >> belly treatments than many earlier works. What may > be on > >> interest in the context of salt loading of > sounboards > >>> is that he reported on what he believed the > early > >> makers used to permanently reduce the unecessary > weight of > >> the sounboard and improve stifness. In his case he > conducted > >> trials and concluded that linseed oil was > used which > >> replaced the heavier water content much, perhaps, > in the > >> same way as salt loading may do. Michelman also > described > >> work with 'metal soaps' which are produced when > water > >> soluble salts react with fatty acids in the wood - > I presume > >> this is also linked to salt loading outcomes. > >>> In short, well worth a read if you're > interested in > >> the subject > >>> > >>> Martyn > >>> > >>> > >>> --- On Tue, 15/9/09, Anthony Hind <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>>> From: Anthony Hind <[email protected]> > >>>> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack > spruce > >>>> To: [email protected] > >>>> Date: Tuesday, 15 September, 2009, 10:45 > AM > >>>> Dear Ed > >>>> I > had a look at what > >> guitar > >>>> sites said about Adirondack, and it seems > "that > >> the chief > >>>> benefit of using Adirondak Spruce as a top > is its > >> stiffness > >>>> to weight ratio." > >>>> http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/ > > >>>> t-51636.html > >>>> > >>>> Presumably this makes it possible to cut > the table > >> thinner, > >>>> and so its reactions should become faster > (similar > >> to what > >>>> happens with carbon). > >>>> This is also what Mimmo tells me about > spruce > >> treated with > >>>> salts. The wood becomes much harder, and > can be > >> cut > >>>> thinner. > >>>> > >>>> That is also why, Martin Haycock told me > he liked > >> to use > >>>> Bird's eye maple for backs; because it is > >> relatively hard, > >>>> he can cut it thinner than Sycamore. > >>>> > >>>> Incidentally, on the guitar page, there is > a > >> tendancy to > >>>> associate Bearclaw Sitka, with > Adirondak, > >> for the same > >>>> reason. > >>>> > >>>> "the qualities of Bearclaw Sitka allow it > to be > >> worked to > >>>> achieve better tone. Due to it's superior > >> stiffness the top > >>>> can be dimensioned a little thinner > (perhaps this > >> isn't done > >>>> by the "factory" guitar makers?). This > should > >> translate into > >>>> a faster attack transient (an essential > >> characteristic for > >>>> clean, fast flat picking). If that is what > you are > >> looking > >>>> for, then that would be better." > >>>> > >>>> (However, I was also told, "The rather > unusual > >> 'bear claw' > >>>> figure seems to be an irregularity of > >>>> the annual rings themselves, and as you > have seen > >> for > >>>> yourself, can be very > >>>> variable. Wood showing this figure seems > generally > >> to be > >>>> stiff and > >>>> acoustically good, although I do not > think > >> especially > >>>> better than normal > >>>> wood, and I would rather use it for its > >> decorative > >>>> qualities, and not assume > >>>> it wil be superior acoustically." > >>>> > >>>> Now, presumably, if Adirondak (or Bear > claw Sika) > >> were used > >>>> as though it were regular European Spruce, > it > >> would need far > >>>> longer running-in. > >>>> It would presumably show higher resistance > to > >> vibration. > >>>> > >>>> On the other hand, I read somewhere on a > violin > >> page that > >>>> you do need to accept a fairly long > playing-in > >> time; that it > >>>> is quite easy to make a top that can be > run-in > >> quickly, by > >>>> making it too thin, but then it tends to > die early > >> too. > >>>> > >>>> However I am sure > Daniel > >> will make you a > >>>> superb Adirondak top, although I rather > agree with > >> David, > >>>> that this does not mean that many > lutemakers will > >> swap over > >>>> to it. I don't think that the very > successful > >> experiments > >>>> with salts loaded spruce tops has lead > many > >> lutemakers to > >>>> try it. > >>>> > >>>> The main thing is that you will soon be > back > >> playing 11c > >>>> music, and perhaps we will have another > excellent > >> recording > >>>> like your recent Conradi - Kelner record. > >>>> > >>>> Best wishes > >>>> Anthony > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Le 15 sept. 09 à 05:45, Edward Martin a > écrit : > >>>> > >>>>> Thanks, David. > >>>>> > >>>>> I fully understand that a new lute > (i.e. top, > >> in my > >>>> case) will not > >>>>> sound as seasoned as an older one, but > in this > >> case, I > >>>> had no option, > >>>>> due to the damage. > >>>>> > >>>>> I have heard that "right out of the > box" that > >>>> Adirondack sounds superb. > >>>>> > >>>>> Are there any on this net who know of > an > >> Adirondack > >>>> spruce top on a lute? > >>>>> > >>>>> ed > >>>>> > >>>>> At 05:49 PM 9/14/2009, David Rastall > wrote: > >>>>>> Hi Ed, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Sorry to hear about your lute. > >> Ouch!! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> From what I've heard, Adirondack > is a good > >> choice > >>>> for a lute. > >>>>>> Apparently it compares favorably > with > >> European > >>>> spruce at its best. > >>>>>> Most of the Adirondack spruce was > used up > >> during > >>>> WW 2 in the making > >>>>>> of airplanes. But today, the > trees > >> that were > >>>> too young to be used > >>>>>> back then are big enough now to be > cut > >> down for > >>>> commercial use. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> My only reservation is that it > might take > >> longer > >>>> to break in than the > >>>>>> other spruces. That's what > I've > >> heard from > >>>> various guitar mavens. > >>>>>> Apparently, the pre-war guitars > made with > >>>> Adirondack are just now > >>>>>> becoming fully broken in. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Because of its quality, > availability and > >> price, > >>>> Adirondack is > >>>>>> considered the Holy Grail of > guitar > >> tops. I > >>>> think it would work well > >>>>>> on any lute that put it under > enough > >>>> tension. It might not work so > >>>>>> well on a 6 or 8-course ren. > lute. > >> It would > >>>> probably work well as a > >>>>>> top for a theorbo. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I think you will most likely be > the only > >> lutenist > >>>> ever to play on an > >>>>>> Adirondack top! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Best, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> DavidR > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Sep 14, 2009, at 1:54 PM, > Edward Martin > >> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Dear ones, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I had an accident with my > 11-course > >> lute 2 > >>>> months ago; the top was > >>>>>>> shattered. My instrument > is one > >> made by > >>>> Daniel Larson, and it is 67 > >>>>>>> cm, the Frei C34 design. > The > >> lute was > >>>> firstly made in 1995 as a > >>>>>>> 7-course Frei, and it was in > 1997 > >> converted > >>>> into an 11-course > >>>>>>> Frei. This lute had a > most > >> beautiful > >>>> sound, and I am very fortunate > >>>>>>> to have recorded my CD > "Allemande" on > >> it, as a > >>>> testament to its > >>>>>>> gorgeous sound, so I can have > this > >> sound to > >>>> make reference. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The instrument is not a total > loss, > >> and it is > >>>> the soundboard where > >>>>>>> the damage occurred. As > it was > >> not > >>>> repairable, Dan has constructed a > >>>>>>> new top for it. The > original top > >> was > >>>> made of Italian spruce, but for > >>>>>>> the replacement, it is made > of > >> Adirondack > >>>> spruce. It is very near > >>>>>>> completion, and the finish > merely > >> needs to be > >>>> polished (French > >>>>>>> polish). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Sitka, Engelmann, and European > spruce > >>>> varieties are the most commonly > >>>>>>> used for today's instruments, > but I > >> have never > >>>> heard of Adirondack > >>>>>>> spruce used for lute tops. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Wikipedia makes this > description of > >> Adirondack > >>>> spruce: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> "Adirondack <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spruce>Spruce aka Red > >>>>>>> Spruce (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picea_rubens>Picea > >>>> rubens). > >>>>>>> This legendary wood that > Martin used > >> for its > >>>> tops throughout its > >>>>>>> golden years came from the > East Coast, > >> from > >>>> the Southern Mountains > >>>>>>> into New England and upper New > York > >> State. > >>>> Called both Appalachian > >>>>>>> and Adirondack spruce, it has > a creamy > >> white > >>>> color. Similar to Sitka, > >>>>>>> Adirondack responds well to > either a > >> light or > >>>> firm touch. It has more > >>>>>>> overall resonance than Sitka. > >> Interesting > >>>> grain color variations make > >>>>>>> this another visually > desirable top. > >>>> Adirondack has been unavailable > >>>>>>> since the mid-1940s. Virgin > growth has > >> been > >>>> (fortunately) preserved > >>>>>>> in national parks; the rest is > all > >> second > >>>> growth, plentiful but too > >>>>>>> small to be usable for guitar > tops > >> until > >>>> recently. Guitar makers have > >>>>>>> started finding second growth > of at > >> least 100 > >>>> years old that is big > >>>>>>> enough to be used for tops > again. > >> Adirondack > >>>> is, like Alpine spruce, > >>>>>>> very expensive and mainly used > for top > >> of the > >>>> range acoustic guitars." > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I looked at the Martin guitar > page, > >> where they > >>>> state that Adirondack > >>>>>>> spruce is used on their > extreme > >> top-end > >>>> models. Dan tells me that > >>>>>>> this wood is very difficult to > obtain, > >> but he > >>>> obviously does have > >>>>>>> some of it. In talking > with some > >> guitar > >>>> friends, they state it is > >>>>>>> wide grained, not straight > >> grained; they > >>>> also tell me it is the > >>>>>>> absolutely best top wood for > guitars, > >> but it > >>>> is rare, as availability > >>>>>>> makes it so scarce. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Mine is very tight and > >> straight-grained. > >>>> If one were to compare its > >>>>>>> appearance, it mostly > resembles German > >> spruce, > >>>> in my estimation. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Dan has made 2 batches > of 4 > >> modern > >>>> guitars; in each batch, he used > >>>>>>> Italian spruce on 3, and > Adirondack > >> in > >>>> 1. He rates the best results > >>>>>>> were startling; in both > batches, > >> the > >>>> Adirondack top yielded the best > >>>>>>> result in all areas - volume, > >> complexity of > >>>> sound, clearness, singing > >>>>>>> trebles, and depth. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Obviously, I am very excited > to hear > >> what the > >>>> final result is on my > >>>>>>> old lute. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> My question is: has > anyone on > >> the list > >>>> constructed, owned, or played > >>>>>>> a lute with an Adirondack > top? > >> This very > >>>> well may be the first lute > >>>>>>> with this top, as I have never > heard > >> of it > >>>> prior to this project. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks! > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ed > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Edward Martin > >>>>>>> 2817 East 2nd Street > >>>>>>> Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > >>>>>>> e-mail: [email protected] > >>>>>>> voice: (218) 728-1202 > >>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name > >>>>>>> http://www.myspace.com/edslute > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> To get on or off this list see > list > >>>> information at > >>>>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> No virus found in this incoming > message. > >>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >>>>>> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus > Database: > >> 270.13.98/2371 > >>>> - Release Date: > >>>>>> 09/14/09 17:52:00 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Edward Martin > >>>>> 2817 East 2nd Street > >>>>> Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > >>>>> e-mail: [email protected] > >>>>> voice: (218) 728-1202 > >>>>> http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name > >>>>> http://www.myspace.com/edslute > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > -- >
