Hello Jaroslaw
It is good to hear from you again too, and to be back on one of
our favourite topics!
It is true that we can compare our situation with that of Oud players,
but the recent story of Pipa players could be almost as enlightening.
The early Pipa was played horizonatlly and with a plectrum, gradually
more strings were added, the players used their fingers, and the pipa
was held more vertically. Then finally, during the Cultural Revolution,
the silk strings were changed for steel-nylon ones, possibly as an
attempt to "modernize" under the influence of Western music, but
partly also just to play louder, so as to make the music less intimist
and more suitable for popular audiences. Of course this also influenced
the style of music, which was composed for the instrument.
Although, the change from silk to metal is more extreme than the change
from gut to carbon, this wider gap (along with an actual political rift
between ancients and moderns), may nevertheless, by this very
exaggeration, help us to better understand the more minute issues in
the change from gut to carbon.
PARA
There is a superb article by Wong Shu-Chee on all these issues, about
the guqin, or Chinese Zither, and it seems quite applicable to our
discussion.
[1]http://www.silkqin.com/03qobj/strings/shuchee1.htm
PARA
He says (and I think this must be true for synthetics for the Oud), "As
modern machine-made industrial products replace handicraft, traditional
craftwork has declined around the world. Thus the appearance of steel
strings, especially considering its applicability to modern
performances, was inevitable."
PARA
He sums up the benefits from steel strings as being, better durability
and stability, easier tuning, less string noise, better projection,
better production stability. This has actually lead to a drop in
quality of silk strings, which makes it harder to turn the clock back.
"Professional musicians of today's generation require consistency in
the tuning of the instrument they use on stage, sufficient volume when
playing in ensemble, bright tone as well as ease of tuning. When
introducing a new composition, the strings must be fit for different
requirements and special effecs. These are characteristics of metal
strings that silk strings cannot replicate. To a traditional amateur
player, however, aside from requirements from onstage performance and
playing ensemble, silk strings' flaws, as compared to metal strings,
become negligible or even advantageous."
PARA
Ancients and Moderns:
There is perhaps a nostalgia in the reconstruction of the intimist
performances of the past that some may feel to be almost reactionary,
but this is especially true when the change has been relatively recent,
and has allowed access to a larger public. In a live tradition, a
break can actually be a sign that the tradition is still alive, and
able to adapt to new circumstances.
Indeed, when a group of Hong Kong, Deyin Qin Society, gave a guqin
concert on silk strung instruments in Shanghai, some in the audience
clearly disliked the implications of this return to a past, more
elitist, style of performance; as WS-C tells us, "The spectacle
reminded one of concerts before Liberation. The concert inspired two
polarized reactions: some in the audience, touched, felt that this was
the true style of guqin and that only after attending the concert had
they realized that the tradition of guqin persists; others thought that
wearing cheongsams and playing with silk strings no longer suited this
era, as guqin ought to follow the progression of our time, thus playing
this way constituted prosaic inflexibility."
PARA
To this criticism WS-C gives the same response that I would do to those
who would be happy to see gut strings completely replaced by
synthetics, simply because most of the best known lutenists are now
using them (implying that we gut players are just nostalgic and a
little crazy: actually, I could accept the "a little crazy", and David,
might happily lay claim to the Nostalgia part).
PARA
As WS-C says, "These opinion gaps can lead to debate, but it's
perfectly normal. As an art, guqin has developed various styles to
which individuals react differently due to their different preferences.
Those who enjoy this style of performance can praise it while others
who dislike it can still comment. The more variation there is in style
and schools, the more the art of guqin appears rich and diverse"
PARA
When time goes by, a vist to the past within a broken tradition,
becomes more like a visit to another contemporary culture, a journey to
a new "exotic" sound world (any reactionary intention tends to be
replaced by an openness to something new). In relation to this, it does
seem a pity to rub out any of the subtle sound qualities due to
original instruments and stringing. Indeed, such discoveries of past
sound worlds can have as much influence on modern creativity and
contemporary composers, as can contact with new cultures.
PARA
In short, I think there has been a general tendancy to create louder
forms of music that reach more people, and this generally results in
more extrovert, but less subtle performances. If we want to recreate
these earlier musical forms, I feel we do need to maintain anything
involved in these more subtle interior shades and colours (lighter
instruments and earlier string types).
PARA
If this clearly implies returning to silk strings on the Guquin, the
difference between gut and synthetics, is less marked (I will admit),
particularly with a plucked instrument (more so on the gamba); however,
full wirewounds, in my opinion, do remain problematic (their sustain
drowning the other voices, and their different sound quality breaking
the smooth transition across the strings). This seems an essential need
for lute music, at least up to late German Baroque.
One solution to this might be Charles Besnainou's carbon spring string
basses, but these do have the plasticky string sound of carbon that
most gut users don't like.
PARA
Anti-HIP
Now, for some any attempt at recreating earlier music is somehow
reactionary and almost sterile (recreating, but not creating); as
opposed to the creative act of reinterpreting elements from earlier
musical traditions within our modern musical system (rather as Debussy
might have done for the French Baroque harpsichord and the style
brisA(c)).
PARA
Others, adopting a weaker form of this anti-HIP position might argue
that Dowland (for one) during his life time embraced changes in hand
technique, and lute-type (6c through to 9c), and the change in bass
string-type that allowed these additional courses. Thus we could remain
true to Dowland, if we play on more or less any lute-type or string
material. I think Eric Bellocq, (a great improviser) who now sometimes
plays the Liuto forte, might justifiably use this sort of argument.
But would that not have resulted in changes to the type of music
Dowland created? I think that is highly likely. At least, this what
Satoh told David about his compositions, as he changed from synthetics
to gut.
For EB, however, capturing the essence of the music and making it live,
being able to improvise in the manner of the composer/improviser, would
seem to import far more than just trying to follow any "crippling" HIP
recommendation.
PARA
Each of us, no doubt, has a varying feeling about how HIP we want to
be, and that is just as well, I think, as it leads to interesting
differences and variations as WS-C tells us above. I do think that all
these options (and the infinite shades, in between) can lead to good
music. However if my enthusiasm, say, for loaded basses is catching, I
really see no harm in that.
PARA
The right strings for the right occasion:
Incidentally, I recently heard a concert contrasting Baroque music
on lute, theorbo, and Baroque flute with more contemporary music (on
modern flute and guitar), Les GoA>>ts-RA(c)unis Versus-ensemble, as the
programme says (I translate roughly), "this ensemble brings us a varied
and original programme to help us discover forgotten sound colours and
historic instruments, as well as the new sound possibilities of the
instruments of today, across musical works which have numerous features
in common"
PARA
It was an interesting experience, Benjamin Narvey had loaded basses on
his lute and Lyons on his theorbo, while of course the guitarist, JS
Morales, had wirewounds. I was instantly struck that the loaded and
lyons basses had a similar warm woody (red) colour to that of Anibal
Sierra's Baroque flute, while the silver blue sound of the wirewounds
on the guitar echoed those of Julie Weber's modern metal flute.
Clearly, in this case, the contrast was so much better than if Benjamin
had played on wirewounds.
PARA
Incidentally, the following concert, to which I was unfortunately
unable to go, was Vincent de LavenA"re and Eric Bellocq's "Le Chant des
Balles", an amazing performance, Benjamin tells me, where VL juggles
and dances with musical elegance while EB "juggles with the notes". Of
course Eric uses synthetics, and needs a completely stable lute as they
also perform, out doors; and the rhythm of such a spectacle could be
ruined by tuning breaks. He does, however, often do away with his
wirewounds, as he is one of the few lutenists to have adopted Charles
Besnainou's amazing spring string basses (I ignore whether these
springs actually play a role in the juggling).
PARA
Thanks, Jaroslaw, for the chance to return to this topic, and sorry if
I have been long-winded, and turned over so much old ground.
Regards
Anthony
__________________________________________________________________
De : JarosAAaw Lipski <[email protected]>
A : Anthony Hind <[email protected]>
EnvoyA(c) le : Sam 30 Janvier 2010, 18 h 31 min 31 s
Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: Tr :Re: Switching between gut strings and
synthetics?
Hello Anthony,
It's so nice to hear you again! Unfortunately I have computer related
problems as well. Instead of certain fonts the small box with letters
inside
appears on some sites. Do I lack some fonts in my laptop?
Anyway, back to Oud players. I think their world is in close relation
to
ours, so we can draw some paralels. We have to remember that the lute
was
intruduced to Europe during Moorish invasion (at least some wise man
believe
this), so in a way our lute is a descendant of Oud. Their tradition is
unbroken since mediaeval times or even earlier. I can even risk saying
that
their tradition is even more stable then European in XVII or XVIII c.
We
can see how desperately people were looking for new solutions. How they
were
experimenting with new constructions of their instruments to suit new
demands of the music. They lost the battle so this is why we can't see
what
would they invent later (maybe it's good we can not), but in general we
can't assume that in Europe the lute players would be more traditional
then
in Arab countries.
I have heard many Oud players. Some of them are very traditional, other
introduce new techniques, but in general they are very competent. The
taste
is a different matter, but...de gustibus non est disputandum.
In general, hadn't our lute tradition been broken, we wouldn't have the
gut
dispute anymore. But it's good we have! We have the choice. Choices are
interesting. We don't need to pretend we are the old ones. We won't be
HIP
ever, but it doesn't mean we don't wish to unveil the real details of
the
art of lute playing.
I absolutelly agree with Danny that from time to time we can hear some
very
unispiring so called HIP performances which one wouldn't like to hear
again.
On the other hand I have heard some fantastic recitals on syntethics.
So in
general I don't assess performance by the string or lute model
selection.
I always say, one has to try, try and try and then decide what sounds
best.
All the best
Jaroslaw
----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Hind" <[2][email protected]>
To: <[3][email protected]>
Cc: <[4][email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 9:59 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tr :Re: Switching between gut strings and
synthetics?
> I have had problems with loss of paragraph and line breaks, which
have
> quite put me off messaging, so I will try using a AS: symbol to
> indicate paragraph break, and see if that works.
> Hello Jaroslaw
> Last year, I went to a poetry reading which was
accompanied
> with oud, at l'Institut du Monde Arabe, here in Paris, and before
the
> readings began, the Oud player came on stage and began warming up.
His
> playing seemed so subtle, and the Oud really beautiful (a sort of
> largish Venere style). Of course I could not say what his stringing
> was, but probably synthetics.
> Then he called in some technician, who set up a microphone, and the
> sound changed to electrified Oud, all the delicacy and tracery was
> gone. He called the technician back a few times, and I hoped he was
> going to have it switched off, or at leat turned down, but he had it
> turned up.
> The poetry was interesting, but also expressed very loudly, with a
very
> strong romantic effect. The lute intervals were such a
disappointment,
> not from the playing, but from its complete loss of the delicacy I
had
> heard at the beginning; but clearly no one on stage, or off, had any
> problem with it, except myself.
> AS:
> Who am I to tell Oud players what they should or shouldn't do from a
> musical point of view, but I would certainly not base any argument
on
> what we should do, from what they are doing at present.
> On the other hand, I would gladly receive lessons from this
skillfull
> performer; as you say the speed and flow of his playing was
> magnificient, and there was nothing flashy or showy in his playing,
> like some modern guitarists tend to do. He was very much there to
serve
> the music and the poetry; but for me this was severely flawed by the
> brash microphone sound.
> AS:
> Regards
> Anthony
> AS:
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> De : "[5][email protected]" <[6][email protected]>
> A : Anthony-Hind <[7][email protected]>
> EnvoyA(c) le : Sam 30 Janvier 2010, 0 h 57 min 00 s
> Objet : Tr :[LUTE] Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?
> ---- Message d'origine ----
> >De : "JarosAAaw Lipski" <[8][email protected]>
> >A : [9][email protected]
> >Objet : [LUTE] Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?
> >Date : 29/01/2010 19:58:55 CET
> >
> >Whether your string is made of gut or syntetic it has nothing to do
> with
> > tempo one can play. Each material demands different attitude when
> playing
> > (and our contemporary big stars of the lute world are the real
proof
> of
> > this). Bach won't sound better or be played faster on gut because
> Bach
> > didn't write idiomaticly for this instrument and many of his
pieces
> can be
> > played on any instrument. I am neither fan of syntetics nor guts.
All
> of
> > them have their problems and good sides. Some will sound better in
> some
> > situations, some in others....but I am sure that at least some of
the
> "old
> > guys" would use syntetics or wired strings. It's a matter of taste
> and
> > practicality too (if one has to think about concert situation).
BTW,
> I
> > wonder why Arab Oud players don't use gut anymore (and they are
> faster then
> >
> > ever!). Don't they like traditional gut tone? I always thought
they
> are very
> >
> > traditional......
> > Best
> >
> > Jaroslaw
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Daniel Winheld" <[10][email protected]>
> > To: <[11][email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 5:46 PM
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?
> >
> >
> > > Anton,
> > > Great perspective- my 13 course B-lute is indeed almost all gut
> (some
> > > low fundamental compromises, solid silver wound La Bella guitar
> > > strings- two "d's" and one A for fundamentals on C-11, B-12, and
> > > A-13). I follow Toyohiko Satoh's low tension specs. While not a
> > > "virtuoso" on Baroque lute, I don't find the tension any
hindrance
> at
> > > all to any tempi I might launch into. My viel ton instruments
are
> at
> > > slightly higher tensions- about midway Satoh's specs and the
> tension
> > > charts like, say, Dan Larson's- no matter gut or synthetics- no
> > > hindrance at all to tempo, and I think the lower tension makes
> > > ornamentation a bit more forgiving on the synthetics.
> > > Dan
> > >
> > > Speaking of tempi, have you heard the Ensemble 415's Opus 6
> Corelli?
> > >
> > >>What I can say is - my experience is only Baroque lute.
> > >>Gut strings are very stiff and it makes it possible to manage
> > >>certain things on low tension around 2,2 - 2,5 kilos which would
> > >>never be possible on nylon. Therefore many people play very low
> > >>tensioned lutes, saying this sounds better. I think as for the
tone
> > >>itself it does sound a bit better but important is to be able to
> > >>express oneself ad here the problem comes. I never heard anyone
to
> > >>perform a Weiss from Dresden let us say F sharpMinor n 23 or G
> minor
> > >>nr 30 or any piece of this scale with trebles having low
tension. I
> > >>am also talking about real tempo.
> > >>I do think that Presto is FAST! and not a baroque word which
means
> > >>expression etc. Weiss met Corelly and people were well aware of
> real
> > >>virtuoso music. So my point is the lute is just an instrument as
> any
> > >>other. It has to be playable, tempos fast and it must be in
tune.
> > >>My wife Anna and concentrate on Bach and Weiss mostly pieces
that
> > >>are very technically demanding and there is absolutely no way to
> > >>push them to the right limit on the slopy stringing.
> > >>I do think that gut enables you to articulate better and when
> needed
> > >>play faster and indeed produce better contrasts. The lute with
gut
> > >>is just a different instrument. Very different... It feels
> correct:)
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > > [1][12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
--
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