Jaroslaw
Just one question, first, did you receive my message from the lute
list, or was it quite empty.
I have been told that some people received a blank message (probably
with some relief).
>Anthony,
>
> As far as sustain is concerned I was rather talking about the bass
> strings. Obviously sustain is related to the instrument construction,
> but this is another topic.
Yes but we can see what they were trying to do by looking at instrument
structure, not so easilly by looking at strings, as there are not many
available, except the Mest string.
See for example the French/Dutch lute: we see that the lute maker is
trying to achieve the same thickness of rope across all the basses (as
Mimmo is trying to do with loading strings). The result could be
different in terms of sound quality, but there is a similarity in
purpose.
We can see from the sympathetic stringing that they were indeed trying
to obtain more sustain, but they could have just put them on the bass
end, if it was only bass sustain they were interested in. That was the
point I was making (admittedly we are talking about Viols and not lutes
here, but the aesthetics could be similar).
It is not quite true that sympathetic stringing does not concern the
strings. The sympathetic stringing was usually in metal, so you could
say that it already evokes the idea of using metal and gut together;
but still they were for all strings, and not just the bass.
However, you are right in relation to the fact that the big problem was
the impedance of bass strings, and I believe there were several
solutions attempted (possibly Lang Lay, Spring and Loaded), finally
demifilA(c) were probably found to be the easiest to make, and also
eventually to be preferred aesthetically, but also they may have become
almost necessary when the 13th course was added on a rider lute.
So yes, in as much as during the whole period bass courses were
progressively being added, we could say that we were slowly working
towards that goal (but I feel that might be too determinist from the
point of a French Dm musician).
PARA
> > PARA
> > I also agree with Mimmo, but this does not mean that the
differences in
> > lute string structure according to register means a less
homogeneous
> > sound, on the contrary.
> >
> Different material has to mean difference in tonal quality.
Homogeneous
> means: 1/of the same nature or kind 2/uniform in structure or
> composition throughout.
> The other term is harmonious meaning: having component elements
> pleasingly or appropriately combined. So real homogeneity is not
> achievable on baroque lute because of technical problems you
mentioned.
> Moreover I don't think that ideal of homogeneity was valued in
Baroque
> era any longer to the same extent as in past. The only thing we can
> discuss is smoothness of transition between registers. I agree that
it
> has some importance for French music, however German music works very
> well on instruments with very distinct registers.
>
The point is that the different types of string are not chosen to
differentiate the voices, but to bring them as close as is possible, to
make them sing together, and this can only be done by acheiving a
similar impedance across the voices (good harmonicity, or low
impedance). Sucess is not 100% that is quite so, it cannot be, but that
was true even during the Renaissance period, where we also had Bass,
Meanes, and Trebles.
You are evidently correct that there is not a sudden break, but a
gradual transition from the Renaissance to late German, so depending on
what features you look at you will see more of one and less of the
other.
In a debate, we are forced to simplify to a certain extent, to bring
out a particular argument.
French Dm could of course be considered closer to late German Baroque
than to early Italian Renaissance, (or at least sole of the features
will already be there in French Baroque), so, yes, it has to be a
question of degree.
> > Here, I think we understood things differently. I may be wrong, but
I
> > thought this superb string, with its magnificient behaviour when
held
> > between the hands, was Mimmo's latest version of his Venice loaded.
> As
> > I understood it, the cream of Tartar was used to obtain an even
> > smoother loading than he had obtained before. The result is that a
> very
> > thin Venice core could be maintained, as a heavier loading could be
> > used, allowing the loading to be increased in steps on the same
core
> > (just as the Dutch lute allows the same thickness of bass to be
used
> > for all basses, by increasing their length by steps).
> > This would give an exceptionally low impedance (as explained above)
> and
> > a remarkably true resonance pattern, as shown by Gerle, Leroy,
> > Mersenne, etc:
> >
> I can't be sure because Mimmo's explanations on this topic weren't
> absolutely clear, but as far as I and some other people understood
this
> was just a sample of transitional state of gut production after a
> treatment with tartar oil (which idea was borrowed not necessarily
from
> the string makers) , however the string would be stiffened again in
> later phases. Probably this doubt could be solved only by Mimmo
himself
> (I am sorry if I got something wrong).
>
Well, I got wrong the fact that it was not "cream" but "oil of tartar",
as you said, and it is true that this was used to soften the hands, but
I think Mimmo is using it to have a smoother loading of his loaded
strings.
I could also be wrong; but did you hold the string? It seemed hugely
heavy for the thickness, so that is why I assumed it is an improved
loaded string. Of course, we had better ask Mimmo.
> >
> No, this is just to say that many first class musicians choose wire
> wounds or synthetics or both (in various combinations) for some
reasons.
> Now, you can ask yourself why. Probably for various reasons. But I
don't
> think that the main reason is they are cheap. Actually they posses
some
> musical qualities that gut doesn't, and it was recognized by some
good
> musicians. Whether you like these qualities or not is a matter of
> preference, but it can't be denied they posses some valuable virtues.
As
> I repeatedly say, I love gut too, but it's for me just different not
> necessarily much better. It is better for some music and for some
> occasions. Unless new types of gut are invented that will surpass all
> other string types I will use both.
>
I agree, I think most musicians choose synthetics first because they
are more stable from the tuning point of view; secondly, because as
they are machine made they can be almost identical (it would be a
little cheeky of me to compare this with New World and Old World
wines). They can therefore probably be made more true.
Where there is a clear advantage from the loaded and other gut strings
is in the texture and timbre (which in certain cases is a clear
advantage, as when Benjamin accompanied a Baroque flutist, contrasted
with the contemporary players).
This is a choice that everyone has to make, and it will vary according
to taste and the context in which the lutenist is going to play.
It is true that some lutenists may consider that using gut may come
between them and acheiving their particular musical goals. In which
case, there is no reason for them to feel any obligation to do so. I
have no idea what I would do if I were a professional musician, so it
is certainly not for me to try to impose anything.
PARA
But I am not only interested in the question at a practical level. I do
happen to be interested in the whole Bass string mystery question. In
relation to that, we can also discuss the Lang Lay rope solution of
George, the Spring rope solution of Charles, as well as HT and low
tension, or Mimmo's loaded solution. All these hopefully, along with
wire wounds can give more varied performances, but actually, I am also
interested in the theoretical debate.
PARA
I know that first and foremost, you are a practical musician, so this
may not interest you quite so much, but personally I wouldlisten to the
general argumentation, even if the strings were not makeable at
present. I am glad there are attempts at realizing them that do work,
but I read archeological discussions, that have no obvious practical
repercussions, and enjoy the reasoning, per se.
Thanks again for making le think.
All the best
Anthony
> All the best
>
> Jaroslaw
>
I certainly d
>
>
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References
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