Well, the thing about old Italian, and I use the old dictionaries, is that they don't go to the intent of the writer. Occasionally you will see an expression that is "keyed" to the meaning. But my point is that TAB and mensural notation are the same, becuase for a composer like Palestrina, Lassus, etc, they would have see it as notation, rather than positional shorthand, and not just for lute. A lute composer might have seen it differently. Also the word intabulate does not specifically refer to lute, it has a very general notational sense. Some scholars perhaps might see it differently. I think "place on the lute" could mean anything really, and intavolare *plus* lute means either tab like we now use the term (since no one plays organ tab, shocker) or the actual process of transnotation, which has a slightly different sense. But for them, tab meant a bunch of different things. Even for Bach, many, many years later, tab and notes were interchangeable--we see it in the mss. I can't see pulling in a relatively rare word "entable" with one of the most common words like "place" unless there are more direct examples. Galieo's phrase just uses a different word. To think otherwise would be to imply that lute music was only played from tab, which we know from detailed historical records was not the case. The word intabulate also has a contextual meaning. For Petrucci, it meant to simplify, for others, to arrange, and still others to transnotate. For Palestrina, we can only guess, but having tried to play masses on the lute from notation, I think another, original interpretation is called for. Perhaps each line was played in turn, perhaps two by two, perhaps he sang and played, but the quote is in many respects unique to the source. I don't think Galileo and Palestrina are doing the same thing--one was a lute person, the other a singer, and Palestrina composed no instrumental music, which includes lute music. I suspect that there was a composing technique that we don't know about--the word set may also mean to compose in that case. We accept the monochord in that role, even though, when you think about it, how would it help?
In this way, perhaps the quote is like the statue of the architect with a square ruler in his hand inside a massive cathedral: Palestrina, in building his Cathedral of sound, like his monumental hexachord mass, is shown holding his ruler, but we can't imagine how he built the Cathedral. dt At 03:18 AM 2/25/2010, you wrote: > Thanks David. I know we are splitting hairs here and I mean no > disrespect either, but I presume your opinion is based on your > familiarity with old Italian. I don't pretend to be an expert but your > response says, in effect, that you do not believe that "porre sul > liuto" means "to place [mensural music] on the lute". I'd be grateful > if you could share the knowledge on which your judgment is based. > Perhaps there is something I have missed in my reading of old texts. > Are you using empirical evidence, or are you just expressing an > opinion? > > Maybe there is someone out there reading these messages who is more > expert than either of us in old Italian and who can clarify. > JG > On 25/02/2010, at 19:24, David Tayler wrote: > > Respectfully, I can't really agree that those are similar since > Galileo uses the word intavolare and the other source does not, > plus the simple fact is that intabulate had the meaning of score, not > tablature, since there was organ tablature and tablature for other > instruments as well. > dt > At 10:54 PM 2/24/2010, you wrote: > > No doubt the lute was part of the compositional process as Jessie > Ann > > Owens asserts, and it is difficult to draw any definitive > conclusion > > about the exact role of the instrument from the brief bits of > > information in the letters concerning Palestrina. One detail that > might > > make some difference to the way we interpret the documents, > however, is > > that the term used in the letter is "porre sul liuto," translated > by > > Strunk as "to set on the lute" but literally "to place on the > lute". In > > sixteenth-century Italian usage, this is the common equivalent of > what > > we now would express as "to intabulate". Galilei, for example, > writes > > more precisely in his Fronimo and uses the phrase "intavolare sul > > liuto" for the same thing. Strunk's translation is misleading > inasmuch > > as "to set" in English can be construed as part of the > compositional > > act. Hence, I think it is quite reasonable to conclude that the > > wording implies that music composed in some other way was "fitted > to > > the lute". The phrase at the end of the quote makes it clear that > the > > process was not a simple linear progression from composition to > > intabulation, but that the process involved aural judgment, > revision, > > correction, etc. the lute very much a part of the composer's > toolkit. > > JG > > On 25/02/2010, at 12:29, David Tayler wrote: > > I think Howard is right on as far as the process goes. I don't > think we > > can rule out the lute in any way based on this quote a far as > being > > part of the compositional process. It may have been used for > thematic > > material, for harmony, or any number of things, but it looks like > a > > direct reference. > > The lute would not have had to play the full polyphonic web to be > used > > as a compositional etch-a-sketch. > > dt > > At 05:09 PM 2/24/2010, you wrote: > > \On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:13 PM, John Griffiths wrote: > > the evidence about Palestrina and the lute suggests not that he > > composed on the lute, but that he intabulated his new > > compositions and > > tested them on the lute before releasing them. > > I'm not sure what "tested" or "released" would mean in this > context, > > but at least in English translation, the letter from Annibale > > Capello to Duke Guglielmo Gonzaga of Mantua of 18 October 1578 > seems > > to say Palestrina was using the lute to compose: > > "Having passed recently through a serious illness and being thus > > unable to command either his wits or his eyesight in the > furtherance > > of his great desire to serve Your Highness in whatever way he > can, > > M. Giovanni da Palestrina has begun to set the Kyrie and Gloria > of > > the first mass on the lute, and when he let me hear them, I > found > > them in truth full of great sweetness and elegance. [] And as > soon > > as his infirmity permits he will work out what he has done on > the > > lute with all possible care. > > This seems to say that Palestrina had composed on the lute, and > > would expand it into the vocal parts as soon as he got well. > The > > Duke apparently thought that Capello meant to say that > Palestrina > > was writing lute music, as two drafts of a letter from a ducal > > official to Capello that Jeppeson found in Gonzaga show, or at > least > > thats how Jessie Ann Owens reads them. The first one says: > > "His Highness [the Duke] commands that Your Lordship [Capello] > tell > > Messer Giovanni di Palestrina that he should take care to get > well > > and not hurry to set to the lute the Kyrie and the Gloria with > other > > compositions, because having at hand many other talented men > [i.e. > > in Mantua, I think] there is no need for compositions for lute, > but > > instead for compositions made with great care." > > The second draft says Capello should tell Palestrina that he > "not > > hurry to set the Masses to the lute, since [the Duke] desires > that > > they employ imitation throughout and be written on the chant" > > This is all at pages 292-293 of "Composers at work" which I > pulled > > up on Google books by searching "jessie ann owens" palestrina > lute. > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > __________________________________________________________________ > _____ > > ________________ > > Professor John Griffiths FAHA > > Early Music Studio, School of Music, The University of Melbourne > 3010, > > Victoria, Australia > > tel +61 3 8344 8810 > > mob +61 421 644 911 > > [2][email protected] > > [3]www.vihuelagriffiths.com > > __________________________________________________________________ > _____ > > ________________ > > This e-mail and any attachments may contain personal information > or > > information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of > copyright. > > Any use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. > The > > University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are > free > > from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses > and > > defects before opening them. If this e-mail is received in error > please > > delete it and notify us by return e-mail. > > -- > > References > > 1. [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > 2. [2]mailto:[email protected] > > 3. [3]http://www.vihuelagriffiths.com/ > > _______________________________________________________________________ > ________________ > Professor John Griffiths FAHA > Early Music Studio, School of Music, The University of Melbourne 3010, > Victoria, Australia > tel +61 3 8344 8810 > mob +61 421 644 911 > [4][email protected] > [5]www.vihuelagriffiths.com > _______________________________________________________________________ > ________________ > This e-mail and any attachments may contain personal information or > information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. > Any use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The > University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free > from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and > defects before opening them. If this e-mail is received in error please > delete it and notify us by return e-mail. > > -- > >References > > 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 2. mailto:[email protected] > 3. http://www.vihuelagriffiths.com/ > 4. mailto:[email protected] > 5. http://www.vihuelagriffiths.com/
