Good points, all, Susanne. It certainly would be better to see better detail of the instrument. You're right, even in the larger image I dug up, I can't see any detail at all of string attachment. However, there are a couple features that make me think it's much more likely a Neapolitan mandolin than any other instrument type. I suspect you're aware of all to follow, but for discussion with the group...
Early Neapolitan mandolins tend to have larger and especially deeper soundboxes relative to scale length than their contemporary 4th-tuned mandolini. Some larger soundboxes on 6-course, 4th-tuned instruments are from the Presbler family. Even then, they are much broader than deep. The soundbox portrayed by Devis looks large and deep to me, even for the Neapolitan type. I can see no rose that would have been more common to 4th-tuned mandolini, and the obvious scratchplate is quite typical in shape to other early Neapolitan mandolins. What little can be seen of the bridge seems too fine for a fixed, lute-like tie-block design. Much is obscured by the player's hand, but the narrowness of the bridge appears to be continued into the region that would be carrying strings. A piece of bone or ivory that narrow would almost certainly be a "floating" unattached bridge with strings simply passing over it. That width just wouldn't provide much gluing surface for bearing tension if fixed to the soundboard with strings fixed to it. You'd mentioned the flat peghead, Susanne. Such a design was standard to Neapolitan mandolin, but would be at least a little unusual to lute-like things, including 4th-tuned, gut-strung mandolins. Of the few mandolino-like patterns left in Stradivari's shop, only one shows a guitar-like, flat peghead. I am only aware of two extant authenticated mandolini by Stradivari, and both feature the more typical curved and partially scrolled pegbox. You can see details of the most famous one here, e.g.: http://orgs.usd.edu/nmm/PluckedStrings/Mandolins/StradMandolin/StradMandolin .html The Cutler-Challen mandolino pictured above was restored with a different finial, but the functional aspects of the pegbox were maintained. You can see an image of the un-restored piece in: Tyler, J. 1981. The Italian Mandolin and Mandola 1589-1800. Early Music 9(4):438-446. In zooming in on electronic images of the Devis painting, detail is lost in the peghead. However, from the couple pairs of pegs still visible, it appears to be designed around a total of eight pegs. A four course, 4th-tuned, gut-strung mandolino at this late date would have been quite uncommon. Of course, your point that none of this is definitive without detail is quite valid, Susanne. But I think the Neapolitan type simply is more likely from what I can see. I do wish we could see more detail! Do you know of any higher resolution images available of this painting, Stewart? Best, Eugene > -----Original Message----- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Susanne Herre > Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 5:31 AM > To: Stewart McCoy; Lute List > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mandolin at Kedleston Hall > > > Dear Stewart, Eugene and all, > > Thanks for sharing this interesting painting! > > I think we cannot be sure that this a neapolitan mandolin. I suppose this > instrument is more the older lute-like instrument because of the > following aspects: > > - where the fingerboard passes into the belly - there are the points of > the > fingerboard ("Deckenspitzen" in German?), that's not typical for a > neapolitan mandolin > - there is no hint that the strings are attached to the end of the > instrument, e.g. there is no decoration at the lower end of the belly > - maybe what seems to a hint for the neapolitan mandolin is the board- > shaped > peg-box with backward fitted pegs but we also find that an lute-like > mandolins (like instruments made by Stradivari) > > And indeed it would be really early for the neapolitan mandolin to have > spread to England... > > But to make a more precise statement we should have a picture of a better > quality or see the picture by ourselves. > > What is also very interesting: If we can call this instrument a "baroque > mandolin" we then have one more example for quill technique on this > instrument... > > Best wishes, > > Susanne > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stewart McCoy" <lu...@tiscali.co.uk> > To: "Lute Net" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 7:08 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Mandolin at Kedleston Hall > > > > Dear Eugene, > > > > Many thanks indeed. That is an interesting point - that the Neapolitan > > mandolin would be a comparatively new instrument for the young lady to > > be playing. Just for the record, my friend has told me that the painting > > is dated 1754, which is after the first mention of the instrument, but > > before the first tutor books were published. One wonders how quickly the > > mandolin spread in England at this time. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Stewart. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > > Behalf Of EUGENE BRAIG IV > > Sent: 24 May 2010 01:07 > > To: Stewart McCoy > > Cc: Lute Net > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mandolin at Kedleston Hall > > > > PS: Mid 18th-c. is right about right for extant instruments to begin > > appearing in decent numbers. The first wave of mandolin popularity > > (and almost all the first method books beginning in the 1760s) > > happened > > in Paris. Without knowing anything about the family's history, I > > suspect that portraying themselves with a mandolin this early in that > > movement was a demonstration of their cosmopolitan stylishness. > > Best, > > Eugene > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Stewart McCoy <lu...@tiscali.co.uk> > > Date: Sunday, May 23, 2010 7:00 pm > > Subject: [LUTE] Mandolin at Kedleston Hall > > To: Lute Net <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > > Dear Eugene, > > > > > > In view of this discussion of Neapolitan mandolins, would you or > > > anyoneelse care to comment on a painting of what I believe to be > > > a Neapolitan > > > mandolin at Kedleston Hall in Derbyshire. I was recently sent the > > > following query from a friend who is researching the music there. > > > > > > -o-O-o- > > > > > > If you go to > > > > > > http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-vh/w-visits/w- > > > findaplace/w-kedles > > > tonhall > > > > > > then click on 'Meet the family' the first picture is of Lady > > Caroline > > > Colyear (1733-1812) daughter of the 2nd Earl of Portmore, who > > married > > > Nathaniel Curzon in 1750: there is a charming portrait in the > > Family > > > Corridor of her playing the mandolin ?? , with Nathaniel > > > standing, by > > > Arthur Devis, dated 1754. Please could you identify the instrument! > > > > > > -o-O-o- > > > > > > Any observations would be much appreciated. > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > Stewart McCoy. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute- > > > a...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > > > Behalf Of Eugene C. Braig IV > > > Sent: 17 May 2010 18:19 > > > To: 'Martyn Hodgson'; 'Lute Dmth'; 'Susanne Herre' > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th > > > century > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute- > > > a...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > > > > Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 5:50 AM > > > > To: Lute Dmth; Susanne Herre > > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy > > 18th > > > century > > > > > > > > Did not violinists play the mandolin, > > > especially the > > > > Neapolitan wire strung instrument tuned the same? > > > > > > [Eugene C. Braig IV] However, there isn't any evidence that the > > > Neapolitan > > > type existed until the mid 18th c. at the earliest. > > > Instruments (some > > > with > > > somewhat dubious labels) don't appear until the 1740s and obvious > > > designated > > > repertoire not until the 1760s. > > > > > > Eugene > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > >
