Dear Lute List,
I was able to play my lute again yesterday and I had much better
results. Because there may be other beginners out there lurking, I
will pass along a few comments.
What has improved the tone of my thumb stroke is:
- pulling my thumb back (toward the wrist) slightly and pointing it
more into the soundboard, which results in my using a little more of
the tip of my thumb and a little less of the side. There seems to be a
sweet spot on my thumb tip that is surrounded by more bitter areas.
This also helps the thumb and fingers avoid collision.
- engaging both strings of a course earlier with my thumb, and having
the direction of force angle more toward the soundboard, instead of
parallel to the soundboard and pushing one string into the next. Of
course the string higher up (toward the ceiling) gets a little more
contact, but it's closer to even then before.
- rotating my wrist so that the plam is not parallel to the soundboard,
but rather the thumb side is further away from the soundboard and the
pinky side is closer. This was hard to see from front-on videos,
especially when I didn't know to look for it. It is a natural
consequence of pointing the thumb toward the soundboard while still
allowing the fingers to be able to reach the courses.
Thanks again to everyone who replied. Some were off list, but still
very helpful.
regards,
morgan
__________________________________________________________________
From: Edward Mast <[email protected]>
To: mc41mc <[email protected]>
Cc: Sam Chapman <[email protected]>; [email protected]
Sent: Wed, October 20, 2010 12:30:34 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: beginner help required for thumb under
technique
Having spent some time reading and rereading - and trying - the
suggestions made in his response to Morgan, I want to thank Sam for
such a clear and useful analysis of RH technique. For over a year,
I've been working at moving from thumb over to thumb under in the right
hand (without a teacher's guidance) and Sam's observations will be
helpful. His last sentence was encouraging: ". . .even with a good
teacher it can take years to develop healthy technical habits." I say
encouraging, for I was beginning to view my efforts as hopelessly
inept. Inept, yes, but perhaps not hopeless!
Thanks, Sam, and your improvisations in Morley's consort lessons are a
delight.
Ned
On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:52 AM, mc41mc wrote:
> Dear Sam,
>
> I didn't watch the theorbo vids, but the baroque guitar is thumb-in,
> isn't it? Sure looks that way. It also looks like your thumb and
> index occupy some of the same space on occasion, or at least they
would
> if they were playing on the same course. I suppose in that case you
> would pull your thumb back a bit, and have a bit more thumb-in/under
> and less thumb "above" (above because it's not really out/over or
> in/under, it's pretty much directly above). For playing chords
> (without rolling) it seems to help to pull the thumb back a little
> also. I'm still away from my lute but have been experimenting with
a
> parlor guitar that's around here.
>
> Unnatural may be ok in this circumstance, but after decades of
guitar
> playing and trying hard to play "naturally", pulling my thumb way
from
> my index finger and pointing it more toward the soundboard feels
odd.
> When I watch lute players the plucking hand often looks very
> comfortable, except sometimes the thumb position looks tiring. I'm
> just trying to get off to a reasonably good start and not develop
any
> bad habits, and get a nice tone. When I watch Nigel North, he seems
to
> be under, over, and above depending on what he is playing. But
other
> players, not so much.
> Thanks again for the advice,
> morgan
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> From: Sam Chapman <[1][email protected]>
> To: mc41mc <[2][email protected]>
> Cc: [3][email protected]
> Sent: Tue, October 19, 2010 5:43:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [LUTE] beginner help required for thumb under technique
> Hi Morgan,
> Glad you found it helpful! It's sometimes a good idea to kind of
> "flatten" the thumb, i.e. turn it downwards towards the lute.
Classical
> guitarists tend to have a habit of sort of plucking up from the
string,
> and this won't sound good. If what you're doing feels a bit
unnatural
> that might be a good sign - shows that you're not just repeating
your
> old guitar habits!
> Using the thumb/index is a bit like using a pick, but a really big
> squashy sort of pick that covers both strings of the course!
> As for the videos, I'm glad you liked them, but don't copy the
> technique I use on the baroque guitar and theorbo ones (that's
supposed
> to be thumb-out!). If you're really stuck, you could make your own
> YouTube video, post it to the list and ask for comments!
> All the best,
> Sam
> On 19 October 2010 03:28, mc41mc <[1][4][email protected]> wrote:
>
> Dear Sam,
>
> Thank you so much for the detailed response. I need to re-read it
and
> I am away from my lute, but already it is very helpful.
>
> I think I need to use more of the tip of my thumb (i.e. point it
more
> toward the soundboard) and less of the side (pointing toward the
head
> stock), and contact the second string of the course sooner.
Orienting
> my thumb this way, more perpendicluar to the strings, feels a little
> unatural to me so I was hesitant to do it. Also, I think I was a
> little bit mislead by how much thumb-index scale passages resemble
> using a pick, and so assumed that the thumb could plant on a single
> string and then push through to the second string, similar to a
pick.
>
> I enjoyed the youtube clip you gave. It was hard to see your hands
in
> detail, but I could get a good sense of how you hold the lute. I
got a
> pretty good look at your hands in some of your baroque guitar clips
> which were very nice.
>
> Thanks again,
> morgan
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> From: Sam Chapman <[2][5][email protected]>
> To: m cornwall <[3][6][email protected]>; [4]lute-cs.dartmouth.edu
> <[5][7][email protected]>
> Sent: Mon, October 18, 2010 12:13:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [LUTE] beginner help required for thumb under technique
> Dear Morgan,
> Here are a few tips about RH technique on the lute (most of which I
> picked up during my lessons with Hopkinson Smith...):
> Firstly, I think most players find it much harder to get a good tone
> from the thumb than from the fingers - it's something that even the
> best players have to continually work on, so don't be disheartened!
If
> the sound is harsh it may simply be because the the skin on your
thumb
> is rough. Just as modern guitarists are obsessive about the
> shape/smoothness of their nails, lutenists soon realise how much
> difference the state of the fingertips makes to the sound produced.
You
> may consider avoiding doing lots of manual work (gardening, working
> with tools, chopping wood etc), wearing gloves in cold weather,
evading
> doing the washing up, using hand creams, etc...during periods when
you
> plan to play the lute a lot.
> If the strings are buzzing against each other or the frets, it might
be
> worth checking that your lute is set up really well. If the string
> spacing is very narrow, or the tension is very low this might cause
> buzzing. Also, if the frets are old or not quite the right guage you
> might get similar problems. The best thing would be to get this
checked
> out by an experienced player or maker, otherwise you might waste a
lot
> of time!
> As for the stroke itself, you might consider the following:
> 1. At the start of the stroke, try to have contact with both strings
of
> the course. You can practice this by planting the thumb on the
course
> and feeling both strings under your thumb, without pushing them
towards
> each other.
> 2. The most important thing about getting a good sound with the
thumb
> is to allow the arm to move freely. At the beginning you might want
to
> take your little finger off the soundboard, and make thumb strokes
> where you simply put the thumb on the course (as above) then allow
the
> weight of the arm to bring the thumb through the strings from the
elbow
> (keeping the wrist, hand, and thumb more or less as a unit). Do this
> with big exaggerated movements at the beginning, until the arm feels
> very free. You can also simply strum through all the courses like
this.
> This can be very hard for guitarists, since the elbow is more or
less
> locked in place most of the time on the classical guitar.
> 3. Once the arm is free and moveable you can put your little finger
> back on the soundboard and do the same kind of thing, obviously
making
> less exaggerated movements. But generous arm movements are generally
> very good (you only need to make smaller movements when you start
> playing very fast passages). Your little finger and wrist need to be
> quite flexible, otherwise the arm can't move.
> 4. As for the thumb itself, the joint I allow to move is the third
one
> back from the tip (at the bass of the hand). If you are playing
notes
> with the fingers at the same time, the arm can't move, so the
movement
> comes entirely from there. For playing scale passages I use a
> combination of arm and this 3rd joint (for very fast passage the arm
> barely moves, but never becomes stiff). I would think of the other
> thumb joints more as affecting tone quality. If you keep them rigid
you
> are more likely to produce a strong bright sound; if they are more
> flexible your sound might be sweeter and warmer. But never use these
> joints for actually producing the sound (especially the last
joint!).
> 5. Things like the direction the stroke takes and what part of the
> thumb to use vary from player to player (and thumb to thumb!). It's
> best to experiment. You will find that the kind of stroke you use
> depends on the music and what kind of sound you want to produce.
It's
> good to practice both rest strokes and free strokes. As a general
rule,
> use rest strokes wherever you can, unless it's a fast scale passage
or
> you need to play an adjacent string with a finger. I find that I can
> make a strong bright sound if I use mainly the tip, but using more
of
> the thumbs surface may give more warmth and is generally better for
> playing runs in combination with the index. It's a good idea to
> experiment with pushing the strings towards the body of the
instrument
> when you pluck. However, when playing real music you don't always
have
> time to do this, so you also need to find a way to get a good sound
> with a quick stroke. In general, the thumb (also the fingers) should
> never slide along the strings as you pluck, and should move in one
> clear direction (S-shaped movements are not advisable!). I'm not
sure I
> would say that the thumb stroke is lighter on the lute than the
guitar.
> It's just different. If you ever play on gut basses you will see
that a
> very firm thumb stroke is necessary to get a good balance and
quality
> of sound.
> 6. If your thumb sometimes collides with the other fingers this
> probably has a lot to do with your general hand position (and lute
> position!). However much you change what your fingers do, if you
hold
> the lute at a similar angle to how you would hold a guitar, and your
> right hand approaches it at a similar angle, you will never develop
a
> good thumb-in technique. Your right hand needs to approach the
> instrument at a much less acute angle, ideally so that the right
> arm/wrist passes more or less over the bridge. You can achieve this
by
> either dropping the right shoulder as much as possible (popular, but
> not advised!) or by finding a way to raise the lute so that your arm
> aproaches it naturally at a less acute angle. Some players use a
> footstool for the right foot, others sit on a very low chair, some
> suspend the lute in mid air with a strap...I personally use a little
> cushion on my right leg to raise the lute. The smaller the
instrument,
> the bigger the problem! The lute should also be held at a less steep
> angle than a modern guitar. When you get these geometrical problems
> sorted out, the chances are that your right hand will fall more or
less
> naturally in the correct place and you won't have problems avoiding
> your thumb and fingers clashing. It shouldn't be an effort to avoid
> them bumping into each other - the position of the body and the
> instrument should simply make it more or less impossible (unless you
> have a very long thumb or very short fingers!).
> I hope this helps a bit. As you can see, this is a very large topic
and
> even with a good teacher it can take years to develop healthy
technical
> habits. Good luck!
> All the best,
> Sam
> P.S. You can judge me thumb technique for yourself here:
> [6][8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnpaOTGrG2M
> On 11 October 2010 15:50, m cornwall <[7][9][email protected]> wrote:
>
> Howdy,
> I am now the proud owner of a lovely Barber and Harris 7 course
> student
> lute. I have played the guitar for years, but the lute is new
to
> me.
> I have been studying lute technique as I best can from home,
using
> books, the internet and some DVDs I have. I have yet to find an
> available teacher anywhere near me.
> I have a number of things to sort out, but the most pressing at
> the
> moment is my thumb-under technique. I can get a nice tone from
my
> fingers, but the tone produced by my thumb is harsh. I suspect
> the
> courses are either bumping into each other or the frets, but it
is
> also
> just the way the thumb engages the strings. So I am looking for
> advice
> on the proper thumb stroke. Most of the videos I have, such
Ronn
> McFarlane's Mel Bay video, show the hands from front on. I have
> yet to
> find a video shot from above and behind the player which might
be
> helpful. (just found this ukulele thumb under video:
> [1][8][10]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4)
> My nails are short. I believe that my hand position is
reasonably
> close to where it should be (i.e. it's not in the classical
guitar
> position).
> Obviously the lute requires a much lighter thumb stroke than
used
> on
> the guitar, but even when I use a light strike the sound
produced
> by my
> thumb is not at all as pleasant as the sound when using my
> fingers.
> Does the thumb stroke primarily come from the main thumb joint?
> When
> playing scales the arm seems to come into use as well. But what
> about
> the last joint on the thumb? Players preference?
> Does the thumb begin it's stroke only touching 1 string of a
> course,
> similar to a guitar, or does it rest on both strings, more like
> the
> fingers?
> Is the general direction of the tip of the thumb down,
> perpendicular to
> the strings, or somewhat angled, down and away from the neck?
> Is the portion of the thumb that touches the strings the side,
> mainly
> the side with a bit of the curve of the tip, mostly on the curve
> of the
> tip (where the nail ends), or something else?
> When playing chords, my thumb is much happier when rolling
chords.
> When striking all the courses simultaneously, my thumb is more
> likely
> to run out of space and collide with my index finger.
> Thank you in advance for any advice,
> morgan
> --
> References
> 1. [9][11]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [10][12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
> Sam Chapman
> Oetlingerstrasse 65
> 4057 Basel
> (0041) 79 530 39 91
>
> --
> Sam Chapman
> Oetlingerstrasse 65
> 4057 Basel
> (0041) 79 530 39 91
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:[13][email protected]
> 2. mailto:[14][email protected]
> 3. mailto:[15][email protected]
> 4. [16]http://lute-cs.dartmouth.edu/
> 5. mailto:[17][email protected]
> 6. [18]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnpaOTGrG2M
> 7. mailto:[19][email protected]
> 8. [20]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4
> 9. [21]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4
> 10. [22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. mailto:[email protected]
2. mailto:[email protected]
3. mailto:[email protected]
4. mailto:[email protected]
5. mailto:[email protected]
6. mailto:[email protected]
7. mailto:[email protected]
8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnpaOTGrG2M
9. mailto:[email protected]
10. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4
11. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4
12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
13. mailto:[email protected]
14. mailto:[email protected]
15. mailto:[email protected]
16. http://lute-cs.dartmouth.edu/
17. mailto:[email protected]
18. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnpaOTGrG2M
19. mailto:[email protected]
20. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4
21. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4
22. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
