Sorry for the garbled message. I'll try again
Thanks, Martyn
> Stress is independent of diameter for a given string length and pitch
> so a string of 0.45mm will break at the same pitch as one of 0.50mm
or
> 0.40 (or any other diameter). Clearly tho' a thicker string will
> require a greater tension to bring it up to the same pitch as a
> thinner.
>
Yes, I always find that very difficult to come to terms with
intuitively. The thicker string (by its very thickness) will presumably
accept the supplement of stress needed for it to come up to the same
pitch. However, I think there is a diameter over which this may no
longer be true (possibly because thicker strings are higher twist).
But basically, I could stay at 407 and change to 0.46 with an increase
of tension, but no more likelihood of the string breaking.
However, at 392 there is a drop in pitch, so a much better chance that
the string will last longer,
and no encrease in tension, which is probably good for my lute, and a
drop in resistance, which, in my case, would be desirable for my
fingers.
Regards
Anthony
---- Message d'origine ----
>De : "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]>
>A : "Anthony Hind" <[email protected]>
>Objet : [LUTE] Re: tying two strings together (in process of changing
from 407Hz to 392)?
>Date : 26/11/2010 16:11:14 CET
>Copie `a : [email protected]
>
>
> Stress is independent of diameter for a given string length and pitch
> so a string of 0.45mm will break at the same pitch as one of 0.50mm
or
> 0.40 (or any other diameter). Clearly tho' a thicker string will
> require a greater tension to bring it up to the same pitch as a
> thinner.
>
> MH
> --- On Fri, 26/11/10, Anthony Hind <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> From: Anthony Hind <[email protected]>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: tying two strings together (in process of
> changing from 407Hz to 392)?
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]>, "Sam Chapman"
> <[email protected]>
> Cc: [email protected]
> Date: Friday, 26 November, 2010, 14:40
>
> Dear Martyn, Sam and All,
> $
> Trebles:
> > Regarding pitching of lutes, we have good historic evidence that
> this
> > is closely related to the tensile strength of gut. Thus whatever
> the
> > pitch one generally tunes the highest course to just under
> breaking. (Martyn)
> $
> Yes, certainly Dowland's remarks seem to indicate this. However, I
> suppose it depends how literally you take "just under breaking", and
> just how strong historic strings were.
> The other day, I saw a lutenist use a 0.50 HT string on F1 (as he
> didn't have anything else) and with no apparent problem.
> I tend to agree with Sam, "while I think the top string should be
> tuned
> up until just below breaking point, I think that there is also a
> minimum sensible diameter for a top string - for me it is about
> 0.45mm."
> $
> Indeed this is why, I am dropping my lute from 407 with F1 at 0.44
> at
> 4Kg to 392 with F1 at 0.46 at 4Kg.
> >
> > One corollary to this: there's a little evidence that some 17th
> century
> > French solo lute music, especially the earliest, might not pitch
> > trebles quite so close to breaking stress, in which case you might
> > pitch with the top course one, or even two steps, below those
> indicated
> > above. (Martyn)
> I imagine you are thinking that Dm might simply have developed from
> dropping the top string down from G, possibly implying a lowering of
> tension on the longer diapason lutes.
> $
> If 0.50 is the maximum for F1 at 392, then 0.46 is two steps
> down and is my target value (0.48 at 4K5 might be a little too
> high).
> However, my main aim is to increase the thickness of A3. I feel the
> 0.60 at 3Kg for my lute at 407 is insufficient. I would like 0.64 or
> 0.66 which 392 should permit.
> $
> I have been wondering what the reasons were for the French Baroque
> lutenists preferring "middle size" lutes (Burwell), and although
> this
> may mainly be because they were spurning the frequency extremes, and
> their search for elegant economy of means in the music could also
> have
> favoured smaller easier to play and hold lutes; yet thicker top
> strings
> could also be a positive result of a diapason of around 68cm (all
> things being equal). My 70 cm lute being on the outer limit, I can
> only
> play with lowering the diapason to achieve this.
> Of course the thicker basses on these middle size lute present a
> tricky
> problem, for which loaded strings present the most obvious answer,
> and
> correspond well with the iconography which does not show thick
> basses
> on this type of lute (Charles Mouton).
> $
> Meanes
> I think that the flexibility of twine such as Venice (and
> others), rather than HT, resolves a potential thickness issue on D5.
> That problem could increase at 392Hz.
> $
> Basses
> Equal tension to touch:
> Once the top string has been chosen, then lower courses could be
> tuned
> in relation to this in order to give equal tension to feel (as
> suggested by Dowland, Mace etc); but this might also be open to
> interpretation according to whether all the strings are struck at
> the
> same or different distances from the bridge.
> $
> Bass tension:
> Here again I agree with Sam. "If the tension on the basses is too
> low,
> then it is hard to really lay into the string with the thumb, which
> I
> think is absolutely necessary when playing on plain gut basses."
> However, I have found that it is the overall tension of the course
> that
> is most important. My basses have been quite flexible at 2K7 and
> these
> give way to the thumb, but then the 3K2 Venice Meane octaves come
> into
> play. a"The higher tension octaves then become the lead string and
> contribute their tonal qualities. As I use Venice meane octaves,
> this
> also gives a synergy with the Venice Meanes, and the Venice loaded
> basses.
> I would perhaps like a little more tension, say 2K9 on the basses,
> and
> 3K3 on the octaves, which is what I would obtain if I shift my bass
> courses up one step C11 to D10 (etc) at 392Hz.
> I would then of course be clearly in the high tension camp.
> $
> 3Kg on basses is quite high tension, but some low impedance strings
> work better at higher tensions. It would seem that George Stoppani
> may
> make Lang lay basses (the strands and the rope itself are twisted in
> the same direction). If this is so, as indicated in his talk at the
> lute society meeting, then the resulting string would be more
> flexible
> than an equivalent normal lay twine, and would therefore have
> excellent
> harmonicity and work well at highish tensions. This is perhaps what
> Sam
> is describing:
> "Even when these strings are very thick, they are still flexible and
> produce enough overtones which can then be beefed up by the octave
> string"
> $
> (Charles Besnainou's Lang lay spring ropes take the the low
> impedance
> string one stage further)
> The use of stiff HT strings or even tresses, however, necessitate
> low
> tension bass stringing to lower the impedance and improve
> harmonicity
> (see T. Satoh).
> I tend to lean to the higher tension theory, which seems implied in
> the
> notion of equal tension to touch.
> $
> The basses on 13C lutes:
> From the bass course point of view, there is also a limitation
> coming from the maximum thickness that gives acceptable harmonicity.
> This will vary according to whether one uses pure gut (and the type
> of
> twist), or loaded gut.
> However, even with loaded gut, Mimmo seems to put the acceptable
> limit
> at 240C (=the tension of a 224HT string) and about 1.6mm real
> thickness. Above this, with a plucked string, the loading will tend
> to
> overdamp the string. Of course the tension on a 240C course can be
> increased by using a higher tension Meanes Octave, but there is
> still a
> limit to this Octave compensation.
> $
> Now if we adopt the loaded hypothesis, It would seem possible that
> this
> limit of 240C made stringing a 13c rider lute difficult. In which
> case,
> the demi-filA(c) (which had been around for some time) might have at
> last seemed a good option.
> $
> I recently read your words, Martyn, on Baroque lute stringing, on
> page
> 8 of FoMRHI Quarterly No 44 July 1986, where you argue that "all gut
> basses were always used on the lute even in the 18th century".
> I have no experience with DemifilA(c), but in that article you
> suggest
> that the "florrid writing in the bass seems to prohibit overwound
> strings" (You are speaking of the music of Hagen, Straube, and
> Kohaut).
> I presume you mean that the necessary clarity and speed to perform
> this
> music would prohibit the use of any string that over-rings?
> Presumably,
> string damping would not be a fast enough process?
> You argued that Theorboed lutes (swannecks?) had been developed
> exactly
> for this music-type ("Iconographic as well as internal musical
> evidence"), so as to be able use a pure gut bass alternative to
> demi-filA(c), exactly for this music.
> $
> Some others here have argued that it is simply the development of a
> revelling in the bass ("continuo-type") line, which encouraged the
> use
> of demi-filA(c), together with the bass extension, and the switch
> from
> J to Fan barring.
> I prefer the slightly more complex pattern of evolution suggested in
> your explanation.
> (a few lute makers have suggested to me that fan barring simply
> developed to compensate for the greater tensions big 13c lutes exert
> on
> the lute table.)
> $
> Regards
> Anthony
> ---- Message d'origine ----
> >De : "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][email protected]>
> >A : [2][email protected];
> > "Anthony Hind" <[3][email protected]>
> >Objet : [LUTE] Re: tying two strings together (in process of
> changing
> from 407Hz to 392)?
> >Date : 24/11/2010 10:26:08 CET
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Anthony,
> >
> > Regarding pitching of lutes, we have good historic evidence that
> this
> > is closely related to the tensile strength of gut. Thus whatever
> the
> > pitch one generally tunes the highest course to just under
> breaking.
> >
> > As a rough guide I use the following
> >
> > HIGHEST PITCH OF TREBLE
> > String length, cm @ A392 @ A415 @ A440
> >
> > 76 f' e' eb'
> > 72 f#' f'' e'
> > 68 g' f#'' f'
> > 64 g#' g' f#'
> > 60.5 a' g#' g'
> > 57 a#' a' g#'
> > 54 b' a#' a'
> >
> > One corollary to this: there's a little evidence that some 17th
> century
> > French solo lute music, especially the earliest, might not pitch
> > trebles quite so close to breaking stress, in which case you might
> > pitch with the top course one, or even two steps, below those
> indicated
> > above.
> >
> > Martyn
> >
> > --- On Tue, 23/11/10, Anthony Hind <[4][email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> > From: Anthony Hind <[5][email protected]>
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: tying two strings together (in process of
> > changing from 407Hz to 392)?
> > To: [6][email protected]
> > Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 16:06
> >
> > Dear All,
> > I suppose I should add an explanation for why I need this
> > gluing
> > technique.
> > I have always regretted that my Baroque lute was strung for 415Hz
> > rather than for 392 (for which I had actually asked my lute maker,
> > but
> > he had forgotten this). The main reason for 392 would have been to
> > achieve thicker trebles for my 700mm lute, allowing the fingers to
> > "dig
> > more deeply" into these strings. Diapason 392 could allow f1:046,
> > d2:0.54, and A3:0.64 (instead of f1:0.42, d-2:0.50 and A3:0.58 at
> > 415Hz).
> > Historic arguments in favour of this, for the French Baroque lute,
> > might be the relatively small diapason of historic French lutes
> > (around
> > 68 according to Martyn, and others), which would imply relatively
> > thick
> > trebles, unless the diapason pitch was above 415Hz. I rather
> assume
> > this is part of the French aesthetic. What do you think?
> > $
> > I managed to lower the diapason to 407 (and slightly raise the top
> > string tensions); this was the lowest point at which these loaded
> > strings would work well (I kept the original tension by
> > simulataneously
> > raising the tension of the octaves). I believed the original
> tension
> > on
> > the basses was 3Kg and on the octaves 2K8 (as indicated by my
> > lutemaker). I therefore thought that after lowering to 407 and
> > changing
> > the octaves to 3K1 for that frequency, I would maintain the
> > lutemakers
> > suggested tension, but have 2K9 on the basses and 3K1 on the
> octaves
> > (I
> > roughly confirmed this with Dan Larson's string calculator).
> > However, I did notice that the Venice Octaves were clearly now the
> > lead
> > voice, which I felt was highly desirable, but which did not quite
> > fit
> > in with the small difference of tension. Also Martin Shepherd told
> > me
> > that 2K9 was quite high tension on the basses. However, this was
> not
> > at
> > all how they felt, but I just put that down to the flexibility of
> > the
> > loaded basses.
> > $
> > Recently, however, I wondered whether I could achieve 392 with
> > basses
> > close to 2K9 by moving C11 to D10 and D10 to E9, and so forth (in
> > other
> > words by a simple shift of each string up one). I did fear I might
> > get
> > a more irregular tension pattern, and also that the tension might
> be
> > too high.
> > $
> > At this point, I played around with Arto's string calculator, and
> > finally understood how it worked (I am a little computer programme
> > challenged, and previously gave up when not quite understanding
> > which
> > field corresponded to what parameter) .
> > With Arto's calculator now uderstood, I was able to set the
> > diapason
> > explicitly to 407Hz and remove the guess work. I was surprised to
> > find
> > my basses at 407Hz were actually at a lowish 2K7 (taking account
> of
> > true thickness of the flexible loaded Venices by dividing their
> > value
> > by 1.07, as explained by Mimmo on the Venice string page).
> > Dropping them to diapason 392 (according to "Arto-calc" would
> bring
> > them effectively to around the 2K9, I thought I had originally. I
> > believed this would be acceptable, although I could still drop the
> > diapason slightly to 380Hz or so to compensate if necessary.
> > I would of course have to change most of the other strings, but I
> > didn't want to throw out my "expensive" and well worn in loaded
> > basses
> > (unless they prove already to be a little too old, I have had them
> 2
> > years or more?)
> > $
> > Anyway I thought I could use these, at least, to check the
> resulting
> > values would work well at 392 with 2K9 tension. I made just one
> > check
> > by tuning the C11 string D10 at 392Hz, and it seemed acceptable,
> so
> > I
> > think I can go ahead with the experiment.
> > $
> > I then remembered that as my loaded strings had been cut very
> short
> > to
> > prevent them rubbing against the decorative panel of the peg-box.
> I
> > might need to "lengthen" some loaded basses and perhaps some
> Venice
> > octaves to reach the peg two above, which is why I have asked for
> > your
> > knotting advice. Thank you everyone for your help.
> > I will of course need at least one new loaded string for C11 to
> > carry
> > out the experiment.
> > $
> > I am just wondering whether other loaded gut users have tensions
> > around
> > my target 2K9, higher or lower? 2K7 did work alright, I must
> admit.
> > Do most of you try to lower your basses by compensating with
> higher
> > tension octaves (or are they the same, or lower)?
> > Do most pure and gimped gut users have basses around 2K5 (Dan
> > Larson),
> > lower (Satoh), or higher?
> > $
> > Practical considerations:
> > I am aware that pure gut string users will probably consider
> > 2K9 as a high tension. Dan Larson's standard is 2K5, but this is
> for
> > pure gut, no doubt to compensate for its natural thickness (and
> > inharmonicity, or high impedance, at high tension), and also to
> > account
> > for the relative stiffness of Dan's gimped strings.
> > With loaded Venice strings the flexibility, especially for the
> lower
> > basses, is even greater than that of a Venice (as the core is
> > relatively thin, the weight determined more by the loading).
> > Therefore the impedance at the bridge, even with highish tensions,
> > remains low.
> > $
> > Theoretical consoderations:
> > Of course, low tension as a hypothesis of historical stringing is
> > mainly advanced to account for the tiny historic bridge holes
> > contrasting with the naturally thick pure gut string (and the poor
> > harmonicity of such strings when at higher tension); but also to
> > relate
> > to the relatively thin bass strings represented in the iconography
> > (see
> > for example the Charles Mouton lute).
> > Further arguments for low tension are that most iconography and
> lute
> > marks (see Mimmo Lute news NADEG 94) indicate an RH position near
> > the
> > bridge, which could indicate an attempt to compensate low tension
> by
> > finding a string point with greater tension (see T. Satoh)
> > $
> > If one adopts the loaded string hypothesis, however, higher
> tensions
> > can be achieved, while maintaining thin string diameter compatible
> > with
> > small bridge holes and the iconography; while the RH position
> could
> > indicate an attempt to achieve a point of higher resistance with
> low
> > impedance strings.
> > (An alternative high tension theory is put forward by Charles
> > Besnainou
> > involving a special low impedance spring bass string, more of this
> > later. Perhaps, George Stoppani's lang lay ropes might have a
> > similar
> > but less low impedance potential).
> > Regards
> > Anthony
> > __________________________________________________________________
> > De : Guy Smith <[1][7][email protected]>
> > A : Anthony Hind <[2][8][email protected]>
> > EnvoyA(c) le : Lun 22 novembre 2010, 18h 33min 07s
> > Objet : RE: [LUTE] Re: tying two strings of different thickness
> > together?
> > I agree. The grapevine knot works best when the sizes are roughly
> > equal. Fortunately, I've never had to extend a loaded string.
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________
> > ___
> > From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[3][9][email protected]]
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 8:58 AM
> > To: Guy Smith
> > Subject: Re : [LUTE] Re: tying two strings of different thickness
> > together?
> > Thanks Guy
> > One of the two ropes could be a loaded one, and so probably
> > not
> > supple enough to participate in a double knot. The sheet bend knot
> > might be all I can manage, but for other strings I will try your
> > suggestion.
> > Regards
> > Anthony
> > PS I see there animated knot examples, that make things fairly
> > foolproof.
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________
> > ___
> > De : Guy Smith <[4][10][email protected]>
> > A : [5][11][email protected]; Anthony Hind
> <[6][12][email protected]>
> > EnvoyA(c) le : Lun 22 novembre 2010, 17h 18min 57s
> > Objet : RE: [LUTE] Re: tying two strings of different thickness
> > together?
> > I use a grapevine knot. I learned that in my rock-climbing days as
> a
> > bombproof way to tie into a rope. Probably overkill, but if it can
> > hold
> > a
> > twenty foot leader fall, it should be able to handle a lute
> > string:-)
> > FWIW, the traditional knot for joining two lengths of fishing line
> > is a
> > blood knot, which would be another possibility. I tend to avoid
> > square
> > knots. They can easily be turned into a cats paw knot, which isn't
> > secure at
> > all.
> > Here's a good reference for all sorts of knots:
> > [1][7][1][13][1]http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
> > Guy
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [2][8][14][email protected]
> > [mailto:[3][9][15][email protected]] On Behalf
> > Of Martyn Hodgson
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 8:05 AM
> > To: [4][10][16][email protected]; Anthony Hind
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: tying two strings of different thickness
> > together?
> > I use a reef knot - but secured with a drop of super glue....
> > --- On Mon, 22/11/10, Anthony Hind
> <[5][11][17][email protected]>
> > wrote:
> > From: Anthony Hind <[6][12][18][email protected]>
> > Subject: [LUTE] tying two strings of different thickness
> > together?
> > To: [7][13][19][email protected]
> > Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 15:28
> > Dear All
> > I may need to lengthen a string which does not quite
> > reach
> > the
> > peg, but goes well beyond the nut. I would like to attach it
> > to a
> > slightly thinner short piece of gut to reach the peg in
> > question.
> > I
> > remember that Stephen Gottlieb had done that for several
> > strings
> > on
> > my
> > lute; but I can no longer remember the type of knot he used.
> > Can
> > anyone
> > advise me, or tell me of a page where this knot is described.
> > Regards
> > Anthony
> > --
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> >
>
[1][8][14][2][20][2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/indexht
ml
> > --
> > References
> > 1.
>
[9][15][3][21][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > --
> > References
> > 1. [16][4][22][4]http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
> > 2. mailto:[17][23][email protected]
> > 3. mailto:[18][24][email protected]
> > 4. mailto:[19][25][email protected]
> > 5. mailto:[20][26][email protected]
> > 6. mailto:[21][27][email protected]
> > 7. mailto:[22][28][email protected]
> > 8.
>
[23][5][29][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 9.
>
[24][6][30][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> > --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1.
>
[7][31][7]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=guy_m_sm...@comc
> ast.net
> > 2.
>
[8][32][8]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoo
> com
> > 3.
>
[9][33][9]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoo
> com
> > 4.
>
[10][34][10]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=guy_m_sm...@co
m
> cast.ne
> t
> > 5.
>
[11][35][11]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
u
> th.edu
> > 6.
>
[12][36][12]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yah
o
> ocom
> > 7. [13][37][13]http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
> > 8.
>
[14][38][14]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
r
> tmouth.
> edu
> >
> > 9.
>
[15][39][15]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
r
> tmouth.
> edu
> >
> > 10.
>
[16][40][16]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
u
> th.edu
> > 11.
>
[17][41][17]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yah
o
> ocom
> > 12.
>
[18][42][18]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yah
o
> ocom
> > 13.
>
[19][43][19]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
u
> th.edu
> > 14.
[20][44][20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 15.
[21][45][21]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 16. [22][46][22]http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndexhtm
> > 17.
>
[23][47][23]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
r
> tmouth.
> edu
> >
> > 18.
>
[24][48][24]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
r
> tmouth.
> edu
> >
> > 19.
>
[25][49][25]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
u
> th.edu
> > 20.
>
[26][50][26]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yah
o
> ocom
> > 21.
>
[27][51][27]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yah
o
> ocom
> > 22.
>
[28][52][28]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
u
> th.edu
> > 23.
[29][53][29]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 24.
[30][54][30]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> >
> --
> References
> 1. [55][31]http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
> 2. [56][32]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 3. [57][33]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 4. [58][34]http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
> 5. [59][35]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 6. [60][36]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 7.
>
[61][37]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=guy_m_sm...@comcas
t.ne
> t
> 8.
>
[62][38]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahooco
m
> 9.
>
[63][39]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahooco
m
> 10.
>
[64][40]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=guy_m_sm...@comcas
t.ne
> t
> 11.
>
[65][41]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected].
edu
> 12.
>
[66][42]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahooco
m
> 13. [67][43]http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
> 14.
>
[68][44]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
uth.
> edu
> 15.
>
[69][45]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
uth.
> edu
> 16.
>
[70][46]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected].
edu
> 17.
>
[71][47]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahooco
m
> 18.
>
[72][48]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahooco
m
> 19.
>
[73][49]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected].
edu
> 20. [74][50]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 21. [75][51]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 22. [76][52]http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
> 23.
>
[77][53]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
uth.
> edu
> 24.
>
[78][54]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
uth.
> edu
> 25.
>
[79][55]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected].
edu
> 26.
>
[80][56]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahooco
m
> 27.
>
[81][57]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahooco
m
> 28.
>
[82][58]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected].
edu
> 29. [83][59]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 30. [84][60]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
[61]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
.uk
>
> 2.
[62]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 3.
[63]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 4.
[64]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 5.
[65]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 6.
[66]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 7.
[67]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
t
> 8.
[68]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 9.
[69]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 10.
[70]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
t
> 11.
[71]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 12.
[72]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 13. [73]http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
> 14.
[74]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected].
edu
>
> 15.
[75]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected].
edu
>
> 16.
[76]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 17.
[77]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 18.
[78]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 19.
[79]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 20. [80]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 21. [81]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 22. [82]http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
> 23.
[83]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected].
edu
>
> 24.
[84]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected].
edu
>
> 25.
[85]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 26.
[86]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 27.
[87]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 28.
[88]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 29. [89]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 30. [90]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 31.
[91]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
t
> 32.
[92]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 33.
[93]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 34.
[94]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 35.
[95]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 36.
[96]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 37. [97]http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
> 38.
[98]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 39.
[99]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 40.
[100]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 41.
[101]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 42.
[102]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 43.
[103]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 44. [104]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 45. [105]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 46. [106]http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
> 47.
[107]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 48.
[108]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 49.
[109]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 50.
[110]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 51.
[111]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 52.
[112]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 53. [113]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 54. [114]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 55. [115]http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
> 56. [116]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 57. [117]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 58. [118]http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
> 59. [119]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 60. [120]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 61.
[121]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
et
> 62.
[122]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 63.
[123]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 64.
[124]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
et
> 65.
[125]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 66.
[126]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 67. [127]http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
> 68.
[128]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
.edu
>
> 69.
[129]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
.edu
>
> 70.
[130]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 71.
[131]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 72.
[132]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 73.
[133]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 74. [134]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 75. [135]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 76. [136]http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
> 77.
[137]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
.edu
>
> 78.
[138]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
.edu
>
> 79.
[139]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 80.
[140]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 81.
[141]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
> 82.
[142]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 83. [143]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 84. [144]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
--
References
1. http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/indexhtml
3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
4. http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
7. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=guy_m_sm...@comc
8. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoo
9. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoo
10. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=guy_m_sm...@com
11. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
12. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yaho
13. http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
14. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
15. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
16. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
17. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yaho
18. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yaho
19. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
20. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
21. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
22. http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndexhtm
23. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
24. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
25. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
26. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yaho
27. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yaho
28. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
29. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
30. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
31. http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
32. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
33. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
34. http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
35. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
36. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
37. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
38. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
39. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
40. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
41. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
42. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
43. http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
44. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
45. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
46. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
47. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
48. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
49. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
50. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
51. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
52. http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
53. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
54. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
55. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
56. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
57. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
58. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
59. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
60. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
61. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
62. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
63. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
64. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
65. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
66. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
67. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
68. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
69. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
70. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
71. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
72. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
73. http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
74. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
75. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
76. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
77. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
78. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
79. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
80. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
81. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
82. http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
83. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
84. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
85. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
86. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
87. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
88. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
89. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
90. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
91. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
92. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
93. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
94. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
95. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
96. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
97. http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
98. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
99. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
100. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
101. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
102. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
103. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
104. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
105. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
106. http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
107. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
108. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
109. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
110. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
111. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
112. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
113. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
114. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
115. http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
116. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
117. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
118. http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
119. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
120. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
121. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
122. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
123. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
124. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
125. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
126. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
127. http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
128. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
129. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
130. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
131. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
132. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
133. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
134. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
135. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
136. http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm
137. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
138. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
139. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
140. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
141. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yahoocom
142. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
143. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
144. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
