Thanks Martin, a great idea, I'll get out my felt pens immediately! Oh, will any sort do? Best wishes Anthony ---- Message d'origine ---- >De : "Martin Shepherd" <[email protected]> >A : "Lute List" <[email protected]> >Objet : [LUTE] Re: KF (coloured) Harp strings and other position indicators >Date : 12/12/2010 11:27:12 CET > >Forget bits of bone, tippex, etc. - Gordon Gergory showed me the easy > way a few years ago - just colour a little bit of the fret itself with a > felt-tip pen! > > Martin > > P.S. I also know some people put a little mark on one or more theorbo > basses about halfway along the string. By pushing the string with your > thumb you can check which bass it's resting on as well. > > On 12/12/2010 08:59, Anthony Hind wrote: > > Or you could just use the different colours as "place markers". When > I > > first began playing the Baroque lute, I had a gimped string in > seventh > > position, and both its sound and colour helped me know where I was. > > Now, I only have red loaded basses, so I don't have such an > indicator. > > I imagine that may be what harpist use the colours for (unless they > > indicate differences in tension). I believe Dan Larson also makes > > different coloured Lyons for use as position markers. > > $ > > Incidentally, how many of you have some sort of position markings on > > 5th and 7th frets. I know of several players, who have their lute > maker > > add a bone marker directly on the side of the fret board, but I put a > > very small dot of white marker in that position. In this, I am just > > copying what I saw on someone else's lute. > > $ > > By the way, I didn't feel that loaded Venice strings went so > well > > with the old nylgut, when I heard it on a friend's lute. It may not > be > > the same with the new nylgut; but the difference in tonal colour > > between the coldness of the old nylgut and the warmth of the loaded > gut > > was just too great. As a minimum, it is necessary (in my opinion) to > > have gut octaves, with loaded gut basses (Venice Meane octaves with > > Venice loaded being my ideal); well perhaps this tonal and visual > > colour will be better with New Nylgut, as Ed's report on the Baroque > > list seems to indicate that it is quite different. > > $ > > Nevertheless, it might be the case that composite Harp string basses > > compliment well the New Nylgut (both in tonal and visual colour), for > > those who want to stay with synthetics, and yet who want to rid > > themselves of wirewounds. It always struck me that carbon treble > > strings were rather unpleasant in sound, and indeed Savarez > themselves > > say that the thicker the KF string, the more it sounds like gut. > > $ > > Regards > > Anthony > > ---- Message d'origine ---- > > >De : [email protected] > > >A : [email protected] > > >Objet : [LUTE] Re: KF Harp strings and other types > > >Date : 12/12/2010 00:30:33 CET > > > > > > > > > The great thing about harp strings is that they come in three > colors > > - > > > natural, black and red. > > > You could string your basses all in red harp string so that they > look > > like > > > the renaissance loaded guts ;-) > > > > > > trj > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Martyn Hodgson<[email protected]> > > > To: Anthony Hind<[email protected]> > > > Cc: lute<[email protected]> > > > Sent: Sat, Dec 11, 2010 4:18 am > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: KF Harp strings and other types > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > I think when you say 'below 0.95 the strings are composite' you > mean > > > > > > the reverse - below 0.95 means thinner than this. > > > > > > > > > > > > I would only consider using these KF strings for basses and look > > > > > > forward to Saverez's reply - if they do.... > > > > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > > > > > Martyn > > > > > > ' > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/12/10, Anthony Hind<[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Anthony Hind<[email protected]> > > > > > > Subject: Re : KF Harp strings and other types > > > > > > To: "Martyn Hodgson"<[email protected]> > > > > > > Cc: [email protected] > > > > > > Date: Saturday, 11 December, 2010, 9:02 > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Martyn > > > > > > I will send your message to Savarez; but I think it will take > > > > > > time for them to answer. > > > > > > Carlos says that below 0.95 the strings are composite, above no. > > > > > > I have no direct experience with carbon, except as a listener. I > Know > > > > > > Jacob Heringman used KF on his 5th course, and Martin has done so > > too, > > > > > > with some success. I believe that for the fourth course and above, > > the > > > > > > density of the monofilament KF is too dense and makes for too thin > a > > > > > > string. I know players and lute makers can compensate for this, > but > > New > > > > > > Nylgut is surely a better synthetic option. > > > > > > I believe, below the 5th course the monofilament was too damped, > but > > > > > > perhaps the composite harps strings behave better, and may be this > > was > > > > > > what Stephen Gottlieb had tried and found fairly satisfactory. > This > > > > > > could perhaps allow players to avoid wirewounds in situations > where > > > > > > they feel they can't use gut. > > > > > > I don't think, however, we should pretend that any of these > strings > > > > > > will quite have the warmth and expressivity of gut, even if the > > > > > > "touche" of a good player may well be far more important than > > strings. > > > > > > I still feel that string choices can make that small expressive > > > > > > difference. > > > > > > I do feel that how strings are combined, can almost be as > important > > as > > > > > > the strings themselves. I have heard loaded strings combined with > the > > > > > > old nylgut and neither then sounded very good. The old nylgut > sounded > > > > > > too cold, in comparison with the warm loaded strings. Perhaps, the > > new > > > > > > nylgut might work better, but I honestly think that as a minimum > > loaded > > > > > > gut should be combined with gut octaves, and that the type of gut > > > > > > octave chosen is also important. > > > > > > Sorry to all for having apparently made a break away thread from > the > > > > > > original. I have been having computer problems, and became a > little > > > > > > confused after a number of hours trying to put things right. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > De : Martyn Hodgson<[email protected]> > > > > > > A : [email protected]; Anthony Hind<[email protected]> > > > > > > Cc : [email protected] > > > > > > Envoye le : Sam 11 decembre 2010, 9h 35min 28s > > > > > > Objet : Re: KF Harp strings and other types > > > > > > Dear Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > Many thanks for your trouble and, yes, I'd like to take up your > kind > > > > > > offer of asking Saverez (in perfect French!): > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Are these 'new' strings the same as the old KFG? And does KFN > > relate > > > > > > to the newness (nouveau) of the new strings? > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Are the strings less than .0.95mm in diameter monofilament and > > only > > > > > > thicker ones composite? > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. What is the density of the composite strings (to allow for > > stringing > > > > > > calculations)? What is the density of the monofilament strings? > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd also like to ask for the modulus if elasticity etc but fear > > they'd > > > > > > freak out! > > > > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > > > > > Martyn > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Anthony Hind<[email protected]> > > > > > > Subject: KF Harp strings and other types > > > > > > To: "Martyn Hodgson"<[email protected]>, > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > Cc: [email protected] > > > > > > Date: Friday, 10 December, 2010, 23:52 > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Martyn and Martin > > > > > > It is true that Carlos' original message was slightly ambiguous, > > > > > > but I have asked him to clarify this question, and he tells me > that > > > > > > between KFN33 et KFN91 the strings are still simplex monofilament, > it > > > > > > is only below the diameter of 0,95mm (KFN95) that strings are > > > > > > composite. He goes on to say that in his experience the lowest > limit > > > > > > for lutes is KFN140. > > > > > > Carlos sends you his friendly regards > > > > > > Best wishes > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > PS If you have more detailed questions, I will try to ask them to > > > > > > Savarez. > > > > > > Thank you for this Martin and Anthony. These strings are > interesting > > as > > > > > > a further alternative to loaded, wire wound and the 'spring' > string; > > > > > > especially for those with a large number of instruments to string. > > > > > > I looked into these Saverez KF strings some time ago (are you sure > > > > > > they're 'new' out?) and had reports at the time that > > > > > > they > > > > > > were simply > > > > > > PVF(carbon) strings like any other of the same ilk. I'd be > grateful > > for > > > > > > any clarification you can > > > > > > offer. > > > > > > Martin, you say they only become multi strand above 0.95mm dia but > in > > > > > > Anthony's message he gives someone using thinner KF strings with > the > > > > > > implication that they are these new multi-strand type. 'an example > of > > > > > > the stringing he uses on a lute or 7c Vihuela : g' KFN33 - d' KFN43 > - > > > > > > a KFN52 - f KFN66-33 - c KFN84 - 43,5 - G KFN 112 - 57 - F KFN126 > - > > > > > > 62.' Is it possible that the 'new' aspect of these KF strings are > > that > > > > > > Saverez now makes these multistrand strings at smaller diameters? > > > > > > What's the signoficance of the N in KFN? Does it mean new/nouveau > > type > > > > > > of KF strings? > > > > > > The Saverez website is next to useless only giving marketing blurb > > and > > > > > > lists of available sizes but says the strings are made from > > 'composite > > > > > > fibres' which again > > > > > > implies that all sizes are multi strand. They also > > > > > > make the claim that they are new but perhaps they simply haven't > > > > > > updated an > > > > > > old website? > > > > > > ALLIANCE KF COMPOSITE, Strings for harp > > > > > > A real innovation! This strings are manufactured from composites > > fibres > > > > > > A production which requires fine and sophisticated technologies > that > > > > > > only Savarez could implement until now. > > > > > > Thanks to the technologies, Savarez can produce strings which > > > > > > geometrical qualities are perfect and which resist to the tensions > > > > > > required by the harp. Many years of work and a focusing of > > complicated > > > > > > technologies were necessary to obtain such a result. > > > > > > A long work on the molecules, some molecular relationships and the > > rate > > > > > > of "cristalinity" allow Savarez to obtain an elongation and an > > > > > > elasticity identical to the ones of the gut. > > > > > > The density of these strings is extremely close to the one of the > > gut, > > > > > > so > > > > > > the comparison takes more value. So though gut strings still are > > > > > > very popular, Alliance KF strings have a perfect alternative sound > > > > > > for > > > > > > those who wish to take profit of gut sound and synthetic strings > > > > > > advantages. > > > > > > Martyn > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been using these KF strings for some years. The smallest > > > > > > diameter is .95mm, but this is the equivalent of a gut string of > > about > > > > > > 1.07mm. The one I use is "KF95A", but I think the "A" just refers > to > > > > > > the fact that it is a 2m length. It works well as a 5th course on > a > > > > > > renaissance lute (with an octave - I have not tried unison). It > looks > > > > > > more like a gut string, opaque rather than clear. I have not tried > > the > > > > > > thicker strings, but it seems that it might be worth a try - I > think > > > > > > Jacob Heringman may have done so. I think the next size down is > > .91mm, > > > > > > but it is a plain monofilament PVF string. I think some people are > > > > > > using them for a unison 5th course. > > > > > > Best > > > > > > wishes, > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > > > > [1][1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > >
-- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
