My earlier response to Anthony: Anthony
Sorry to delay answering - I will reply to this but if you're in a rush then send it off. I need to spend proper time studying the picture. At a glance you're right, the fretting does look all the same diameter! Trying to think why this may be my speculation (and that's all it is!) is : if the neck had pulled up this might have been done so as to reduce the action by using a much thinner than normal upper frets. Alternatively, some early writer (Gerle?) mentions an effect of strings buzzing on frets (I think to cut through like a Bray harp) - could this lute be set up to play like this? Also the strings do indeed seem to come from the top of the bridge (or almost) - this is not really possible since in practice since simple statics will make the point half way between the top of the string hole and top of the bridge. However it could be that the maker has made the distance VERY small (looks a bit like this); also if the tension is fairly low then static friction can hold the strings in a higher (or lowever) position if required. Do some tests yourself and see how easy or hard it is to make a string leave from the top of the bridge. rgds Martyn --- On Tue, 8/2/11, Anthony Hind <[email protected]> wrote: From: Anthony Hind <[email protected]> Subject: Tr : Re : [LUTE] [off list] Google Art project To: "Ed Durbrow" <[email protected]>, "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] Date: Tuesday, 8 February, 2011, 14:35 Dear Ed, Martyn, and All, As you lecture on this painting, and until now, I have only given it an admirative, but casual look, may I formulate a few questions about the significance of the stringing and the fretting, about which you may be able to enlighten me? The fretting appears to be equal and not stepped (which is quite different from Dowland's indications), but is this significant of typical stringing of the time? It could be that zooming in alters the perspective and gives too much importance to this detail which the painter might have considered insignificant; but it might also have been highly significant of the practise of the time (around 1533), but not necessarily of good practise, as it was deemed by those knowledgeable in luting. The detail, as you say, is indeed extraordinary, which tends to give the (possibly mistaken?) impression that the painting of the lute might be almost as accurate as a photograph. Although, photographic accuracy is not necessarily informative per se, as the lute could still be painted from memory (doubtful?) or an example of just one man's stringing, or even a lute strung up as a painter's prop and not for playing; but in any case, certain details of instruments in the painting (musical or otherwise) could have been focussed on (at the expense of others), tweaked or altered, to conform with the complex primary symbolic message conveyed. For example, it seems to have been established that some of the instruments are misaligned, as possible symbols of impending chaos, or aligned to the date of Good Friday 1533. "But cleaning of the picture has established that each one of the instruments to the right of the celestial globe - a cylindrical shepherd's dial, two quadrants, a polyhedral sundial and a torquetum - are all curiously misaligned for use in a northerly latitude. This is unlikely to have been an oversight on the artist's part, since one of his closest friends in London was the astronomer Nikolaus Kratzer (...)" "The misaligned instruments are surely emblems of chaos, of the heavens out of joint. The fact that they were intended to be read symbolically is suggested by the generally encrypted nature of the whole painting and confirmed by the lute with a broken string on the shelf below (...)" [1]http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/art-holbeins-inner-game-1291 477.html That the musical instruments are defective, in that one string of the lute is broken and one of the flutes are missing from the case of flutes is evident; but might it not also be possible that Holbein expected the would-be viewer (just as for the sundial) to recognize that this instrument was not ideally strung, according to the principles of the time (i.e. if those principles were already the same as those at J. Dowland's time, around 1610)? I note that the frets (fre t1 to fret 8), apart from being double, would appear to be almost equal in thickness. At the same time, it would appear that the strings are set as high as possible in relation to the bridge-holes. Could this raised string height have been used to compensate for the resulting raised fret height at fret 8 (due to the equal fretting)? The presence of both these features together, could argue against the likelihood that the lute was fretted with unequal frets, and that the painter had simply abstracted away from this; but possibly indicates that the painter is "describing" an actual lute strung in this particular way; although if we accept that, can we be sure that this was a general practise at that time (1533), or just one man's "lazy" habits, or more interestingly a pattern that those in the know would recognize as a badly strung lute which would be difficult to play. If significant, this certainly would not correspond to the later suggestion by Dowland (as pointed out by Martyn Hodgson), in John Dowland's 'OTHER NECESSARIE Observations....' Varietie (1610). Here Dowland relates fret sizes to strings of the lute, Fret 1 and 2: countertenor ie 4th course 3 and 4: as Great Meanes ie 3rd 5 and 6: as Small Meanes ie 2nd 7, 8 and 9: as Trebles ie 1st (PS I wrote the whole of this message, but then realised there was a flaw in my reasoning. If the general tendency around 1533 was to have equal frets, and this called for raised strings at the bridge, why not simply make the bridge higher? The raised strings at the bridge would have to be compensating for something that was not expected when the lute was given its bridge. Indeed, I used this solution on my Renaissance lute when I first added loaded strings, as their large movement tended to touch the frets. Thus perhaps the expected fretting by the lute maker was frets decreasing in thickness, and the raising at the bridge a compensation for the present "poor" equal fretting. I also agree with you Ed, that the strings appear rather thin, particularly relative to the lute holes, and even the smalles treble string, might be thinner than the 0.42 postulated by Martin Shepherd, as being the smallest possible string at the time (if not made from gut strips); but I would point out that some of these features, thin strings, for example, might also have been chosen by the artist to underline the fragility of the harmony they represent, and the bolder thickness of the transverse frets might then have served to contrast this. In this case the pattern chosen, equal thick frets and thin strings (possibly both not ideal), might have been there to underline a symbolism, which is also present in so many other structural elements in the painting, rather than significant of a general practise. These are just my attempts at organising my thoughts and perhaps simply show my ignorance; indeed, perhaps I am the only one to see the fretting as equal; or many of you use equal fretting for a lute that has a particular problem (I seem to remember that might be the case), if so please do excuse my "balbutiements". Regards Anthony ----- Message d'origine ---- De : Ed Durbrow <[2][email protected]> A : LuteNet list <[3][email protected]> Envoye le : Sam 5 fevrier 2011, 3h 32min 30s Objet : [LUTE] Re: Google Art project I missed the beginning of this thread. Luckily I checked the link. Wow! I'm so happy to have this link. What detail! I use this picture in my academic lecture class at Saitama U. (not teaching one this year or next unfortunately). It is always good for two or three 90 minute lectures, what with all the tangents I go off on. Those are quite thin strings on that lute. I wonder if he was using carbon fiber. :-) [3][1][4]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-am bas sadors Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [2][5]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ [3][6]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. [7]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-ambas 2. [8]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 3. [9]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/art-holbeins-inner-game-1291477.html 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 4. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-am 5. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 6. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 7. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-ambas 8. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 9. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
