The Hollar depiction suggests that the tape/ribbon was not fastened to coat buttons but emerged from round the back through the button holes.
Regarding button marks/scrathces on the backs of lutes: presumably one might get these even without using any form of support since the instrument it held against the body. I suspect marks don't appear because one doesn't rub the instrument across ones coat. shirt/ jerkin but just holds it there: I've never experienced such marks even when playing in full tails...... MH --- On Mon, 14/3/11, Nancy Carlin <[email protected]> wrote: From: Nancy Carlin <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Ribbons to hold (baroque) lutes WAS Re: Strap slips off left shoulder. To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]>, [email protected], "Anthony Hind" <[email protected]> Date: Monday, 14 March, 2011, 19:13 Nobody has said anything about marks on the back of the lutes from the buttons on the coat etc. I don't remember seeing many marks on the photos of old lutes that might indicate use of buttons to hold gut strings that hold the lute. Can anyhone comment on this? Nancy Dear Anthony, I sent you the Hollar engraving copy direct so you should have it by now. Pay particular attn to things like how the jerkin is pulled forwards by the tape leaving the button hole and the tape to the neck block button which seems to come from the player's right. Response to yrs below: 1. I agree that we shouldn't be too precious about what type of strap we use - I generally use a ribbon which goes round my back from the end button to the peghead on all instruments (ie lutes as well as theorboes and guitars). My interest in the matter that altho the Old Ones clearly knew about such straps, since they used them for theorboes and the like and for the guitar, but choose not generally to use them, as far as the iconographic evidence goes, for the lute. So the question is why did they not use such a strap? Was the alternative better? - either in terms of holding and/or of acoustics? I don't think it a purely academic question since it may have a connexion to how and where we pluck the instrument which, of course, has a bearing on the sound. 2. Re the laurent_de_la_hyre depiction: it is strange that the tail gut close to the back is shown since most theorbos had facilities for a strap around the back (ie not just an end button but a fastening point on the rear of the main pegbox). This arrangement certainly seems to be that intended when a lute has two buttons on the back (at the base and in the end block) Maybe this gut is nothing to do with holding the instrument? 3. Re tables, certainly - tho audiences will take convincing. Special table-like gadgets? - I think not - think of the fate of Aguado's tripodion - lauded by all used by only him.... 4 re the Pietro Paolini depiction, this seems to be the normal theorbo/archlute end button fastening then passing round the players back thence to a fixing point on the main pegbox. ie not the cross over method I describe fully below. 5. What I had in mind for lutes (not theorboes etc) with two body buttons (at the base and at the neck block) based on the Hollar was this (NB harder to explain than to set up!): a tape goes from the neck block button to a button hole around the chest area of the jerkin (shirt), thence over the RH shoulder, down the back and round ones left side (about half way between chest and belly), there to emerge from another (lower) jerkin button hole, thence to the end button. In short, it corosses over itself. Friction ensures the tape doesn't slip and the direction of the tapes ensure the lute is held close to the body. All a bit of a palaver you may say since it requires putting on the tape with the jerkin(overshirt) - but they had all sorts of fastenings (jerkins to breeches via buttons etc) so spomething like this would presumbly worry them. It's a bit like a many modern fiddlers who equip themsel;ves with fancy shoulder rests and the like which they're obliged to spend time putting on. As said, I really don't know but like to see what the evidence suggests is possible and then whether it's practical. It is both but, to be frank, I still commonly use a conventional back tape (as on a theorbo) to avoid faffing about even on the lute...... But you may care to try it. rgds Martyn --- On Mon, 14/3/11, Anthony Hind <[email protected]> wrote: From: Anthony Hind <[email protected]> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ribbons to hold (baroque) lutes WAS Re: Strap slips off left shoulder. To: [email protected] Date: Monday, 14 March, 2011, 14:27 Sorry, I see the message was not in simple text, so here it is again: Dear Martyn I do agree that a heavy guitar strap could not be historic, and most probably the wider Ahumada strap which is deliberately made to be seen (as well as to give maximum support), would not be either. It would seem from the iconography that the elegance of a lute invisibly suspended (as you say) by a strand of gut, seems rather to have been the tendency, when they weren't simply plonked on a table. Both these systems appear to be depicted in this laurent_de_la_hyre painting, which has been shown on our list quite frequently before. [1][1] http://tinyurl.com/conmfc The gut loop, coming from the back of the lute is clearly shown on the lute on the table: as tried by yourself, "I first tried with a gut loop fastend onto my overcoat buttin (as a rough simulation of heavy 17th surcoat) but found it horribly unstable. " Martyn I had hoped this historic system, would be very stable, with the lute suspended from an ideal point on its back; indeed I was thinking of giving it a try, and if it was compatible with my shoulder problem, I would have happily adopted it. The solution of stabilizing the lute on a table, as frequently mentionned here, [2]http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg16231.html is also shown in this painting, but whether by this period, it was just for tuning, or in this case, for maintaining a pose for the artist, I have no idea. It clearly was a historic playing solution in the Renaissance period, see Robinson, and the iconography: [3]http://www.wga.hu/art/c/costa/lorenzo/concert.jpg Carlos Gonzales, lute maker, tells me he is developing such a lute table, which both serves to stabilize as well as to "amplify" the lute, but the problem of space and transport does not make that a practical solution for all. I think many of us would adopt a historical solution, if it gave the desired stability and was not too impractical. Perhaps, the solution you suggest with "a long tape looped round the back and crossed at the front" could indeed give this desired stabilty. Unfortunately. I could not see the engraving you sent us, which seems to have been filtered-out, but could it be similar to this interesting system shown here, in this painting by Pietro Paolini: CONCERT DE MUSICIENS ET DE CHANTEURS, around 1625: [4]http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r14310/Luth/Iconographie/Joconde/Paol ini Pietro.jpg Could this also be similar to the solution that Sean has adopted? I tried to make a quick mock-up of this, but was not very successful. Nevertheless, I am wondering how far we should feel we have to go along this historic route. It would be "nice" to use a historic strap system, but is it crucial to reentering the sound world of the period? Historicity, per se, might be questioned by some. David v O in a recent Lute News gives excellent arguments for using gut strings as they bring us closer to the microdynamics available to earlier lute-player composers. In order to find similar arguments in favour of adopting historic strap solutions, should we not have to show that the modern solution prevents us in some way (or is at least not conducive) to reconstructing the composer's sound world? If this is not the case, then we may still want to adopt it, just to look or feel the part, but it would not be crucial. I do think that some quite invisible modern aids may effect the dynamics of the lute. The rubber carpet underlay used by many to stabilize their lutes, I feel, dampens the lute's sound. At least, that is how it seems to me, so I stopped using it. However, I don't think that the wideness of a modern strap, would effect the sound; although I do think that the lute's angle (due to the strap's set-up) could effect the sound produced through its effect on the RH angle of attack, and this therefore could be of historic concern. I have to admit that in adopting my present set-up, I sacrificed almost every thing to resolving my soulder problem, which I feared could bring my lute playing to a hault. I needed to be able to quickly alter the strap length to shift the "sweet-spot" so as to avoid developing pain (thus the guitar strap). I also needed to keep my left hand as close as possible to my body, so as to minimze the leverage force on the shoulder capsule. I have found the least painful position is an almost theorbo style (rather like that of Nigel North). This does not seem to be a style used by French lutenists (judging by the iconography, although it IS similar to that shown on the Pietro Paolini painting), and this unfortunately, will be effecting my RH position and angle of attack, and so presumably the sound. But my lute may also be judged to have a rather too long string length (70cm) for French music; and perhaps with a 67cm lute, I could manage a more horizontal (and historically correct) lute position. Thus, I am not proning these solutions for all, just trying to resolve my own shoulder handicap, with the lute I have at present. Although, I did chose a red strap over the black equivalent, as it went better with the red loaded basses, and somehow looked a little more the part than the regular black one. "We discussed using ribbons or tapes fastened to an end botton and a neck button to hold lutes fairly recently (2009 in fact). The problem mentioned then was that the set-up was pretty unstable (a sort of rotary effect was even mentioned) and certainly I found it so. And so I'm interested that you're persisting with this - how did you overcome the problems?" Martyn I would say, that a wider strap, if not historic, does seem to help stabilize the lute, and I wanted as rigid a lute set-up as possible. I found that, with this strap tied to both lute buttons, if I tilt the table of my lute slightly upwards, then there is less tendency for it to roll, (or to rock, in spite of what the strap type might suggest ...). The 4th and 5th ribs from the top (of my 11 rib lute) seem to settle into my stomach shape (but that could depend on one's shape). Although, I have my strap quite long, and not tight, I can stand and play with the lute remaining quite stable. Furthermore, I get better feedback from the instrument, which has been a help to my playing. I am not sure this lute angle is historic, although again it is not far from that depicted by Paolini. Regards Anthony ________________________________ De : Martyn Hodgson <[5][email protected]> A : Anthony Hind <[6][email protected]> Cc : [7][email protected] Envoye le : Ven 11 mars 2011, 15h 15min 11s Objet : [LUTE] Ribbons to hold (baroque) lutes WAS Re: Strap slips off left shoulder. Dear Anthony, We discussed using ribbons or tapes fastened to an end botton and a neck button to hold lutes fairly recently (2009 in fact). The problem mentioned then was that the set-up was pretty unstable (a sort of rotary effect was even mentioned) and certainly I found it so. And so I'm interested that you're persisting with this - how did you overcome the problems? I think I know how the early players did since there is one rather good illustration of tapes/ribbons coming from waistcoat buttons (or perhaps round the players back and coming from the button holes) fastened to the two buttons. This greatly increases the stability of the arrangement since these are pretty firmly fixed.There is an engraving which seems to show this and I'm attaching it again. It is, to my knowledge, the ONLY representation showing such an attachment to a button on the top block and thus a unique examplar of what must, if the number of lutes with such buttons are an indication, have been common practice from (mid?) 17thC on. Certainly few paintings show a strap (as used with theorbos and the like) being used for lute and some (eg Mouton) seem to have them suspended in mid air almost (tho' perhaps they might have suggested straps not being shown....) I've tried it and the system with a long tape looped round the back and crossed at the front provides the required stabilty. I first tried with a gut loop fastend onto my overcoat buttin (as a rough simulation of heavy 17th surcoat) but found it horribly unstable. Any other ideas? rgds Martyn PS I think the heavy wide rock guitar straps are a diversion from historical practice - surely if such massive straps were ever used they'd be seen on almost all the representations of people playing lutes? Ribbons/tapes are much more discrete and, not being over the shoulder, do not really show at all - hence, presumably, why not seen in iconography --- On Fri, 11/3/11, Anthony Hind <[8][email protected]> wrote: From: Anthony Hind <[9][email protected]> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Strap slips off left shoulder. To: "Sean Smith" <[10][email protected]>, "Herbert Ward" <[11][email protected]> Cc: [12][email protected] Date: Friday, 11 March, 2011, 10:36 On my Baroque lute, I attach both ends to the lute bowl, although the button at the front end occasionally pops out! I am using a red suede leather terminated guitar strap, but as the strap tends to slip off the shoulder, I have sown rubber undercarpet material to the underside of the strap (the same material as many people use on their lap). I have turned the strap over to show this, here: [1][1][13]http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x It may seem inelegant, but it doesn't show when playing. The only problem is that this material , with prolonged contact, can take the varnish off the lute (or mark it, as did happen to me), so another solution could be to use a thick velvet, similar to that used on this lute strap, by Jose Antonio Ahumada: [2][2][14]http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d Indeed, I would use this strap type, as it grips on to the shoulder very well, except that you can't control the strap length quite so well. The grip is even better if you can have the strap tight, but that means holding your lute high on the chest. As Benjamin Narvey is doing here: [3][3][15]http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8 I used to do this, as I could then either stand or sit, but having had a frozen shoulder (adhesive capsulitisis), I now have to hold my lute as low as possible, so as to put minimum strain on the shoulder area. Regards Anthony __________________________________________________________________ De : Sean Smith <[4][16][email protected]> A : [5][17][email protected] Envoye le : Jeu 10 mars 2011, 19h 20min 18s Objet : [LUTE] Re: Strap slips off left shoulder. Thanks, Roman, but this shouldn't be taken as an illustration of what I meant. I'm sorry that I don't have the means to throw it up on the web at the moment. Think stabilizing triangle from strap-end to pegbox. s On Mar 10, 2011, at 9:58 AM, Roman Turovsky <[4][6][18][email protected]> wrote: > I've made a little chart of how to tie the strap to prevent rolling/slipping: > [5][7][19]http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg > RT' > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Smith" <[6][8][20][email protected]> > To: <[7][9][21][email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 12:43 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Strap slips off left shoulder. > > >> Tie the strap off at the butt end of lute in the usual way. Where the strap ends over the left shoulder attach a long loop of string (I like a dark shoelace). Let one end run over the peg at the nut end of the pegbox and the other at the tip (or wherever you like considering all those pegs to choose from). Make a few loops around varius pegs on the far side to finetune the length and to keep it from traveling. >> >> I've done this for years. I can stand or sit and expect zero lute rotation. It also keeps my shoulders 'square' and non slumpy which may help your slippage problem. >> >> >> Sean >> >> On Mar 9, 2011, at 7:20 PM, Herbert Ward <[8][10][22][email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> In playing my 13-course, the strap is constantly on the verge >>> of slipping backwards off my left shoulder. To a lesser extent >>> this happens with my Renaissance lute also. Any suggeestions >>> besides safety-pinning the strap to my shirt? >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> [9][11][23]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > > -- References 1. [12][24]http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x 2. [13][25]http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d 3. [14][26]http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8 4. [2]mailto:[15][27][email protected] 5. [16][28]http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg 6. [3]mailto:[17][29][email protected] 7. [4]mailto:[18][30][email protected] 8. [5]mailto:[19][31][email protected] 9. [20][32]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [33]http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x 2. [34]http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d 3. [35]http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8 4. [36]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 5. [37]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] du 6. [38]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turovsky@verizon. net 7. [39]http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg 8. [40]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 9. [41]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] du 10. [42]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] s.e du 11. [43]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. [44]http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x 13. [45]http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d 14. [46]http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8 15. [47]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turovsky@verizon. net 16. [48]http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg 17. [49]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 18. [50]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] du 19. [51]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] s.e du 20. [52]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [6]http://tinyurl.com/conmfc 2. [7]http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg16231.html 3. [8]http://www.wga.hu/art/c/costa/lorenzo/concert.jpg 4. [9]http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r14310/Luth/Iconographie/Joconde/Paol iniPietro.jpg 5. [10]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@yahoo .co.uk 6. [11]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] m 7. [12]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] du 8. [13]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] m 9. [14]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] m 10. [15]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 11. [16]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] s.edu 12. [17]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] du 13. [18]http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x 14. [19]http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d 15. [20]http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8 16. [21]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 17. [22]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] du 18. [23]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turovsky@verizon. net 19. [24]http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg 20. [25]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 21. [26]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] du 22. [27]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] s.edu 23. [28]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 24. [29]http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x 25. [30]http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d 26. [31]http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8 27. [32]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turovsky@verizon. net 28. [33]http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg 29. [34]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 30. [35]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] du 31. [36]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] s.edu 32. [37]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 33. [38]http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x 34. [39]http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d 35. [40]http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8 36. [41]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 37. [42]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] du 38. [43]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turovsky@verizon. net 39. [44]http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg 40. [45]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 41. [46]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] du 42. [47]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] s.edu 43. [48]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 44. [49]http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x 45. [50]http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d 46. [51]http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8 47. [52]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turovsky@verizon. net 48. [53]http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg 49. [54]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 50. [55]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] du 51. [56]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] s.edu 52. [57]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web sites - [58]www.nancycarlinassociates.com [59]www.groundsanddivisions.info Representing: FROM WALES - Crasdant & Carreg Lafar, FROM ENGLAND - Jez Lowe & Jez Lowe & The Bad Pennies, and now representing EARLY MUSIC - The Venere Lute Quartet, The Good Pennyworths & Morrongiello & Young Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - [60]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org -- References 1. http://tinyurl.com/conmfc 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=%5b15%5d%5b27%[email protected] 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=%5b17%5d%5b29%[email protected] 4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=%5b18%5d%5b30%[email protected] 5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=%5b19%5d%5b31%[email protected] 6. http://tinyurl.com/conmfc 7. http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg16231.html 8. http://www.wga.hu/art/c/costa/lorenzo/concert.jpg 9. http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r14310/Luth/Iconographie/Joconde/PaoliniPietro.jpg 10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 15. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 16. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 17. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 18. http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x 19. http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d 20. http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8 21. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 22. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 23. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 24. http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg 25. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 26. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 27. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 28. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 29. http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x 30. http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d 31. http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8 32. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 33. http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg 34. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 35. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 36. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 37. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 38. http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x 39. http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d 40. http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8 41. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 42. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 43. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 44. http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg 45. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 46. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 47. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 48. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 49. http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x 50. http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d 51. http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8 52. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 53. http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg 54. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 55. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 56. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 57. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 58. http://www.nancycarlinassociates.com/ 59. http://www.groundsanddivisions.info/ 60. http://lutesocietyofamerica.org/
