Dear Martyn
It seems that many waxes contain some sorts of acids, or acids develop
as
the wax breaks down (beeswax, etc), while Renaissance wax reportedly doesn't.
On the other hand,
"Controversy over its use
Wax coatings are known to be susceptible to accumulations of dust and lint. They
may also obscure some fine detail.
Although Renaissance Wax is generally agreed to be a useful and stable material
for conservation work, this view is not without some reservations. Owing to the
polyethylene wax content, some authors have reported problems in removing it"
This is very relevant for a museum article, where you need to be able to restore
the item to its original state, less so perhaps for a lute."
I have to say that I am more bothered by the marks on my Renaissance lute, yet
if I was a player of note, it would be good that I left a trace.
For example, you can verify that Jakob Lindberg's impressions of his RH
technique correspond perfectly with the clear traces he leaves on his lutes.
If you go to
http://www.musicamano.com/
and click on "instruments" you can observe the the RH little finger traces on
each of JL's instruments do vary progressively according to the period of the
instrument and its size, but not in any strongly marked differentiated way
between Renaissance (near the rose) and Baroque (nearer the bridge).
JL makes this a shift in technique rather than a break (if we judge from the
marks on his lutes); and this is indeed what JL tells ED Durbrow, in a recent
interview.
"ED: More on technique – How do you vary the technique from instrument to
instrument? Do you have different techniques for different instruments, or do
you have one basic technique that you kind of alter?
JL: I suppose perhaps, the latter. In my way of playing, rest stroke with the
thumb is a very central issue to how I play both renaissance and late baroque
lute, of course. And that stroke of falling down with the thumb, giving volume
and strength – That’s one thing. Of course, in later repertoire, to play the
passage work, more and more you rely on m-i, rather than p-i. That, in itself,
opens up the hand slightly differently.
So, if I play early six-course repertoire, my lute is more horizontal, which
means that thumb inside is more natural. If I play later style, the lute is more
upright, and so, when thumb and forefinger meet, they can meet on the other
side, and in any case, mostly the thumb is out, and the running passages work is
being done by m-i. But it’s a gradual development, and you can see in
iconography as well, how in medieval paintings the lute is at least horizontal.
And you get to the later, and it’s more and more upright. And the whole thing
hangs together. So a ten-course lute style is somewhere in the middle there.
There I use both i-m and p-i. It sort of naturally flows from one to the other.
But in recitals nowadays, I usually don’t mix two much extreme techniques, so
that I won’t necessarily put half of six-course lute in a Weiss second half."
I will try the oxidized linseed oil.
Regards
Anthony
For
________________________________
De : Martyn Hodgson<[email protected]>
À : Anthony Hind<[email protected]>
Envoyé le : Jeu 24 mars 2011, 14h 48min 48s
Objet : Re: Re : [LUTE] Re: Wax
Not really,
The Stand Oil does not significantly penetrate into the wood (it's much too
thick/viscous to transmit throught the pores) - it acts like a sirface coat
(much as your wax). So it does not change the tone and is nothing like the
treatment of wood that the Old Ones may, or may not, have used.
It's advantage is many centuries of experience and knowledge (used in ancient
Greece), known use for various purposes in early instrument makers workshops and
absolutel inertness and ability to easily recoat (if required). I wonder about
Renaissance wax using, as it does, distllation products from crude oil and
whether or not it will remain inert over many centuries/decades. There are many
examples of conservation practice once thought cutting edge now utterly
disredited. My advice - if you use anything use stand oil or leave it alone -
the wood will darken in a decade or two.
Incidentally to make Stand Oil simply pour raw linseed oil into a dish and leave
to...... stand. You can occasionaly test it. I reckon a few months will oxidise
is to good thick treacle.
Martyn
--- On Thu, 24/3/11, Anthony Hind<[email protected]> wrote:
From: Anthony Hind<[email protected]>
Subject: Re : [LUTE] Re: Wax
To: "Martyn Hodgson"<[email protected]>
Date: Thursday, 24 March, 2011, 12:58
Dear Martyn
I have tried linseed oil with a fixing or drying agent on wood work; but
this is clearly not the same, as it does not have the treacle quality you
mention.
I take it this is more for "varnishing" a completed new lute, rather than to be
added to a lute that has already been polished by the lute maker (French polish
or other).
I imagine the resulting "varnish" would make to table hard and so give
carbon-like properties (greater speed of propogation), rather like treating the
wood with Borax, or other salts.
Regards
Anthony
________________________________
De : Martyn Hodgson<[email protected]>
À : Anthony Hind<[email protected]>
Envoyé le : Jeu 24 mars 2011, 11h 08min 37s
Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: Wax
Dear Anthony,
Have you tried 'Stand Oil'? - Linseed oil allowed to stand until it starts to
oxidise to the consistency of treacle. It needs to be put on with a rubber since
it's far too viscous to paint on - hence does not pentrate into the wood but
leaves a very thin coat which oxidises hard in a few days. NB NOT modern
commercial so called stand oil which is usually just boiledlinseed oil with
chemical driers.
I believe Stand Oil is what was used originally - certainly an opiled finish was
very common on furniture before the advent of 'French' polishing.
rgds
Martyn
PS Did you eventualy get the pic of the lute player holding his instrument with
tapes?
'
--- On Thu, 24/3/11, Anthony Hind<[email protected]> wrote:
From: Anthony Hind<[email protected]>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Wax
To: "Bruno Correia"<[email protected]>, [email protected]
Date: Thursday, 24 March, 2011, 9:44
Dear Bruno
Thanks for reminding me, I try to use Renaissance wax fairly
regularly; it does seem to protect my Baroque lute. I did not treat my
Renaissance lute at the outset, and it is quite marked by my little
finger (due to acidity, no doubt).
Of course the difference might also be due to the difference in
"varnish" that the two lute makers used; but Stephen Gottlieb was quite
surprised by the unmarked quality of my Barouqe lute's table; and he
wondered if it was because I was careful, or if I didn't play all that
often.
I thought I might have lost the tin, but I have just found it; but
there are no details about the formula on the tin. It just says
micro-crystaline wax polish, as used by the British museum. I notice
Miguel Serdoura suggests not only using Renaissance wax, but also
gently washing the table at the point of contact with weak soapy water.
I haven't tried that.
Regards
Anthony
__________________________________________________________________
De : Bruno Correia<[email protected]>
A : Edward Mast<[email protected]>
Cc : List LUTELIST<[email protected]>
Envoye le : Jeu 24 mars 2011, 3h 47min 16s
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Wax
Hi Edward,
Interesting, I'll check the formula, if there is one...
Just for curiosity, how do you mix these waxes?
2011/3/23 Edward Mast<[1][1][email protected]>
Bruno,
I'm not familiar with this wax. But Robert Lundberg - in his book
"Historical Lute Construction" - gives two formulas for a wax to
use
on the top. The simplest one is: 2 parts beeswax, 1 part carnauba
wax, 6 parts turpentine. Perhaps before buying, you can find what
the formula of the Renaissance wax is.
On Mar 23, 2011, at 5:32 PM, Bruno Correia wrote:
> Is this product (Ranaissance wax) advisable to use on the top of
the
> lute? I think somebody mentioned it in the list...
>
>
>
>
[1][2][2]http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Cry
sta
lli
> ne/dp/B001DSZWEM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300899218&sr=8-1
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
[3][3]http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Crysta
lli
ne/dp/B001DSZWEM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300899218&sr=8-1
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [4][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:[5][email protected]
2.
[6]http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Crystalli
3.
[7]http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Crystalli
ne/dp/B001DSZWEM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300899218&sr=8-1
4. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:[email protected]
2. http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Crysta
3. http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Crystalli
4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
5. mailto:[email protected]
6. http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Crystalli
7.
http://www.amazon.com/Picreator-65mL-can-Renaissance-Micro-Crystalline/dp/B001DSZWEM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300899218&sr=8-1
8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
