> A piece may sound wonderful (and touch the listener) on any instrument > or in any combination of instruments. But, there must also be a reason > to why f.ex. guitarists wish to alter the sound of their playing so > much with all kinds of wave manipulation and distortion. (There must > be 1001 or more ways to alter the sound of any note on a guitar string > with the help of todays electronics), (I know, I know, another point > for the fundamentalists...) This makes me think of a wonderful recording by John Renbourn of the famous Sarabande by J.S. Bach from Partita No.1 BWV 1002 for Unaccompanied Violin. He played it on an Epiphone Casino hollowbody electric guitar with tremelo and reverb. http://www.amazon.com/Lady-Unicorn-John-Renbourn/dp/B000000E9F (The entire LP is wonderful.) Renbourn states on the liner notes that he was in no way trying to be historic, but to bsaically breathe new life into some ancient pieces. I think he succeeded. I think that, if the old masters had possessed effects, they would have used them. I have to agree with G. that the quest for finding HIP lute sound is admirable, and I am always amazed at the amount of knowledge, expertise and musicality of members of this list. For those who are recordists, why not experiment with some different environments: close mic'ed outdoors in a courtyard, or in a small bright room, or in a well designed sound studio with very subtle reverb added electronically? It's apples and oranges - personal preference, but I think it nice when a recording of a solo instrument sounds as if the player is in my living room as opposed to somewhere else. Thanks for this discussion, Tom
> Hi people > This whole discussion begins to approach the (almost ZEN) question of: > "What is the "pure" lute sound?" > > And: "What did the lute sound like yesteryear?" > > As for myself, I have to say that I admire the quest for finding the > "perfect" lute sound of the ancients. Those persuing it today are the > present sound scientists. The creme-de-la-creme of exquisite sound > epicurees, who wish to replicate the old sound of the "LUTE". All > kudos to you, and I admire your work, effort and almost religious > dedication to the "cause". (At the same time, I wonder how many you > actually are :) > > As a lover of multiple plucked string instruments, I have to wonder > though, if this is a quest that will ever be achievable. After all, > the human ear endears itself to all kinds of sounds. > > Look at how a lute will sound in different environments. Out in the > open nature (bird song and all), or confined within larger or smaller > spaces (warm tapestried wooden rooms versus cathedrals). The sound > will vary immensely. The stringing may vary, the construction of the > lute may vary, etc. etc. > > This means that there are a quantum of factors that will affect the > final sound of any lute (or plucked instrument) in a different > setting. > > So should we persue this quest for the "perfect" lute sound, and can > we? > > IMO Yes! By all means, if you are so inclined. But more important is > to make the music come alive. In that respect, I don't believe the > actual "sound" is paramount, but the quality of the "music". The > musicianship. (And I'm extremely ambiguous about the 1001 editings to > CD's to make them "perfect sounding" cf. Glenn Gould). Perhaps CD's > should have a "live" label, or specify that they've been variously > edited. (If only for honesty). But let's face it, surely, any CD or > album, has since time immemorial been edited and most mistakes weeded > out. (I have a live recording I consentingly made of Paul'O at a > concert in 1985 though, and the faults are impressively minimal! And > the musicianship optimal already then!) > > A piece may sound wonderful (and touch the listener) on any instrument > or in any combination of instruments. But, there must also be a reason > to why f.ex. guitarists wish to alter the sound of their playing so > much with all kinds of wave manipulation and distortion. (There must > be 1001 or more ways to alter the sound of any note on a guitar string > with the help of todays electronics), (I know, I know, another point > for the fundamentalists...) > > But as I see it, human ears just love diversity. A piece by f. ex. > Bach or Weiss, played on multiple instruments or if plucked on: an > authentic gut strung 13 course German baroque lute, a harp, an 11-14 > string alto guitar, a lautenwerck etc. may be equally moving as well > as equally JUSTIFIED. > > I for one, greatly admire the fundamentalists, but also heartily > applaud the innovating "modernists" (for need of a better word). > > If this rambling sounds self-evident, its because it is. I just had to > put it down... > > TXS and Best > > G. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Edward Mast" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Cc: <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 10:22 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: What's the point to 'historical sound' > > > > Good points, Tom. I recently listened to (on FM radio) a Spanish > > lute piece played by Hopkinson Smith. Had I not been familiar with > > the instrument, I would have guessed that it was about the size of a > > grand piano. I can understand recording engineers wanting to > > 'enhance' a sound that to their ears may appear too 'small', but I > > would hope that players would have some say in the ultimate sound of > > the recording. Very positive examples of players having input into > > the recorded sound are the recordings done by Ron Andrico and Donna > > Stewart. -Ned On Jul 11, 2011, at 4:01 PM, [email protected] > > wrote: > > > >> Playing in churches or stone-built castles is fine, and I can see > >> why people like the reverberative acoustics. Lots of different > >> kinds of music sound very good in these spaces. > >> BUT - are we talking about HIP Renaissance lute, Baroque lute, or > >> Medeival music? Stone-built castles were largely a medieval thing, > >> and the residents heavily draped walls, etc. with tapestries and > >> the like to make the spaces warmer and more habitable. This would > >> have deadened the acoustics of those spaces. When we go to a place > >> like Warkworth we're not seeing the space as it was when it was > >> lived in, but a mere skeleton of that. > >> If we look at Jan Vermeer's "A lady at the virginals with a > >> gentleman > >> (`The > >> Music Lesson´)" > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jan_Vermeer_van_Delft_014.jpg > >> we see a typical upper middle class room environment from the mid > >> 1660s. I think a lot of lute music was heard in spaces like this. > >> Note the heavily draped table. The smaller dimensions of the room, > >> the beamed ceiling, plus the addition of furniture, paintings on > >> the walls, drapery, and even the way the walls were constructed > >> (not stone), would all have contributed to moderating the > >> reverberation (echo) in the room, with the end result being much > >> less reverb than a church or castle. Hence the point of my earlier > >> comment: I'd like to hear some HIP recordings done in a less-echoy, > >> warmer setting ; ) > >> Tom > >>> Mathias wrote... > >>> Don't know why so many of us like to play in churches, but I for > >>> one won't hesitate to accept speakers if I'm offered. > >>> For my 2 pence, I suggest that the acoustics are better (more > >>> authentic) in a stone built church being the closest resemblance > >>> of castles and the homes of nobility. Churches fulfill this > >>> role, with the bonus of seating for an audience. Almost every > >>> town and village in the UK has one, so venues are common enough > >>> to set up for a recital. Castles are fewer and far between and, > >>> historic houses may not always be so accommodating for a recital > >>> with seated audience. > >>> > >>> > >>> Why historic sound? > >>> > >>> > >>> This is what every listener who enjoys the lute or simply wants > >>> to experience, comes to expect. If we `evolve' from this, as > >>> other more modern instruments seem to be doing, it will become > >>> `lost' again. > >>> > >>> > >>> Will some future generation research and try to recreate the > >>> `historic sound' as much as we have been trying to do, if we > >>> move on from tradition? > >>> > >>> > >>> Kind regards > >>> > >>> > >>> Ron (UK) > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
