Absolutely Martyn! I'm already a convert, despite needing twice as much fret gut; ergo costing twice as much - Important to a Scotsman ;o) . I have found they don't slacken off as easily as a single loop - no doubt for the reason you mention. And, as you say, they do last longer . . . Bill
PS This knot also works very well with nylon frets (for the philistines among us . . . ;o) From: Martyn Hodgson <[email protected]> To: William Samson <[email protected]>; "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, 31 August 2011, 15:41 Subject: [LUTE] Double fret loops Historically double fret loops seem to have been the norm; there was an exchange of emails on this topic some time ago - see the archives. Other than Thomas Mace, who mentions single loops but when explaining how to tie the fret knot describes the normal double loop, I'm not aware of any other evidence for single loops. Single loops seem to have been a sort of continuation of (modern) guitar practice of a single (here fixed) fret which early modern lutenists (mostly ex-guitarists) copied and seem reluctant to discard........ It has been speculated that double frets create buzzing but in fact the gut closest to the finger takes most of the heavy wear and soon beds down leaving the second gut to keep a clean take-off for considerably longer than a single loop. In addition, being double the length of a single loop, the double loop also has twice the elongation(stretch) for he same tie force and allows it to be tied lower (ie closer to the nut) as Mace advises and then pulled up to ensure a very secure position. Try it! MH From: William Samson <[1][email protected]> To: "[2][email protected]" <[3][email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, 31 August 2011, 13:19 Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? I wonder how many of today's lutenists are using double gut frets? It would seem that until the time of Thomas Mace (who I think was the first to mention the use of single frets), and maybe for some time after that double frets were the norm. Players who have used them will probably tell you that they do affect the quality of sound produced. So - In our search for an authentic playing experience and sound, shouldn't the use of double frets be high on our priority list? In case you are unfamiliar with the double fret knot, it is described at David van Edwards's website - [1][1][4]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/fretknot.htm Bill From: sterling price <[2][5][email protected]> To: Garry Warber <[3][6][email protected]>; "[4][7][email protected]" <[5][8][email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, 31 August 2011, 7:30 Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? As any good luthier will tell you today, hide glue is still superior to modern glue for several reasons. --Sterling Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Or, As I enjoy assuming, the "old ones" used the best they had, and if they'd had epoxy glue and nylon strings that's what they'd have used... :-) Things can get endlessly circular in these beliefs. I just like how well the early music is written! The stuff plays itself without a lot of "interpretive gimmicks." I'm all for re-creating their sound as close as we can, for others. For myself, a totally modern lute is just ducky... :-) Garry -----Original Message----- From: Roman Turovsky Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:27 AM To: Martyn Hodgson ; [1][2][6][9][email protected] ; andy butler Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? There is a great likelihood that "our" gut is rather acoustically different from "their". Lets not forget to use the honest modifier "approximation of". RT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[2][3][7][10][email protected]> To: <[3][4][8][11][email protected]>; "andy butler" <[4][5][9][12][email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? > > The superiority of gut is chiefly that it was the material used by the > Old Ones. If we have any pretensions to attempting to reproduce the > sounds these early lutenist composers expected and their auditors > heard, it is necessary to employ the same string materials. > > MH > --- On Tue, 30/8/11, andy butler <[5][6][10][13][email protected]> wrote: > > From: andy butler <[6][7][11][14][email protected]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? > To: [7][8][12][15][email protected] > Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 9:27 > > David van Ooijen wrote: > > The basses are shortish, so a higher tuning would be better, > actually. > > If the instrument is tuned to g', gut diapassons are possible (if > cost > > is an issue use fret gut, it really is so much better than any of the > > modern materials), otherwise carbon or metal-wounds seem to be the > > best option. > Beginner's questions. > Is the superiority of gut down to the shorter sustain time > that someone mentioned earlier? > Is string damping really unpopular? (unnecessary?) > andy > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1][8][9][13][16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. [9][10][14][17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- References 1. mailto:[11][15][18][email protected] 2. mailto:[12][16][19][email protected] 3. mailto:[13][17][20][email protected] 4. mailto:[14][18][21][email protected] 5. mailto:[15][19][22][email protected] 6. mailto:[16][20][23][email protected] 7. mailto:[17][21][24][email protected] 8. [18][22][25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. [19][23][26]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [24][27]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/fretknot.htm 2. mailto:[25][28][email protected] 3. mailto:[26][29][email protected] 4. mailto:[27][30][email protected] 5. mailto:[28][31][email protected] 6. mailto:[29][32][email protected] 7. mailto:[30][33][email protected] 8. mailto:[31][34][email protected] 9. [32][35]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 10. [33][36]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 11. mailto:[34][37][email protected] 12. mailto:[35][38][email protected] 13. mailto:[36][39][email protected] 14. mailto:[37][40][email protected] 15. mailto:[38][41][email protected] 16. mailto:[39][42][email protected] 17. mailto:[40][43][email protected] 18. [41][44]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 19. [42][45]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [46]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/fretknot.htm 2. mailto:[47][email protected] 3. mailto:[48][email protected] 4. mailto:[49][email protected] 5. mailto:[50][email protected] 6. mailto:[51][email protected] 7. mailto:[52][email protected] 8. mailto:[53][email protected] 9. mailto:[54][email protected] 10. mailto:[55][email protected] 11. mailto:[56][email protected] 12. mailto:[57][email protected] 13. [58]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 14. [59]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 15. mailto:[60][email protected] 16. mailto:[61][email protected] 17. mailto:[62][email protected] 18. mailto:[63][email protected] 19. mailto:[64][email protected] 20. mailto:[65][email protected] 21. mailto:[66][email protected] 22. [67]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 23. [68]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 24. [69]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/fretknot.htm 25. mailto:[70][email protected] 26. mailto:[71][email protected] 27. mailto:[72][email protected] 28. mailto:[73][email protected] 29. mailto:[74][email protected] 30. mailto:[75][email protected] 31. mailto:[76][email protected] 32. [77]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 33. [78]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 34. mailto:[79][email protected] 35. mailto:[80][email protected] 36. mailto:[81][email protected] 37. mailto:[82][email protected] 38. mailto:[83][email protected] 39. mailto:[84][email protected] 40. mailto:[85][email protected] 41. [86]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 42. [87]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[email protected] 2. mailto:[email protected] 3. mailto:[email protected] 4. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/fretknot.htm 5. mailto:[email protected] 6. mailto:[email protected] 7. mailto:[email protected] 8. mailto:[email protected] 9. mailto:[email protected] 10. mailto:[email protected] 11. mailto:[email protected] 12. mailto:[email protected] 13. mailto:[email protected] 14. mailto:[email protected] 15. mailto:[email protected] 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 18. mailto:[email protected] 19. mailto:[email protected] 20. mailto:[email protected] 21. mailto:[email protected] 22. mailto:[email protected] 23. mailto:[email protected] 24. mailto:[email protected] 25. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 26. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 27. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/fretknot.htm 28. mailto:[email protected] 29. mailto:[email protected] 30. mailto:[email protected] 31. mailto:[email protected] 32. mailto:[email protected] 33. mailto:[email protected] 34. mailto:[email protected] 35. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 36. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 37. mailto:[email protected] 38. mailto:[email protected] 39. mailto:[email protected] 40. mailto:[email protected] 41. mailto:[email protected] 42. mailto:[email protected] 43. mailto:[email protected] 44. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 45. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 46. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/fretknot.htm 47. mailto:[email protected] 48. mailto:[email protected] 49. mailto:[email protected] 50. mailto:[email protected] 51. mailto:[email protected] 52. mailto:[email protected] 53. mailto:[email protected] 54. mailto:[email protected] 55. mailto:[email protected] 56. mailto:[email protected] 57. mailto:[email protected] 58. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 59. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 60. mailto:[email protected] 61. mailto:[email protected] 62. mailto:[email protected] 63. mailto:[email protected] 64. mailto:[email protected] 65. mailto:[email protected] 66. mailto:[email protected] 67. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 68. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 69. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/fretknot.htm 70. mailto:[email protected] 71. mailto:[email protected] 72. mailto:[email protected] 73. mailto:[email protected] 74. mailto:[email protected] 75. mailto:[email protected] 76. mailto:[email protected] 77. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 78. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 79. mailto:[email protected] 80. mailto:[email protected] 81. mailto:[email protected] 82. mailto:[email protected] 83. mailto:[email protected] 84. mailto:[email protected] 85. mailto:[email protected] 86. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 87. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
