Daniel
You mentioned recently that you were looking for a few first
generation loaded strings for your baroque lute, however, I don't think
you said what the specific values were. Early last year, Bridgewood and
Nietzert mentioned to me that they did still have a few first
generation strings, when they couldn't find one of the values I was
looking for in the Venice C-type. Of course whether they have any left
at all, right now, is perhaps unlikely, but worth a try.
I agree with what you describe (below) relating to higher tension
stringing, at least with low impedance basses such as a Venice C type:
a slighly higher tension than usual does not result in the usual closed
in sound that would be obtained with a high tension stiff HT gut bass
(and the instrument does not seem to suffer at the sort of tensions I
use). This has been my experience, when, last year, I lowered the
diapason on my 11c lute from 407 to 392Hz, so as to be able to raise
the tension of my ultra flexible basses, by shifting them along one
position, from C1 to D2 (etc), and so raising the tension by an
increment.
I think the original tension was around 2K7 on the Venice loaded bass,
and 3K on the flexible Venice octave, and the new tension would be
about 2K9 on the basses, and 3K3 on the octave. The bass course remains
very flexible, but just a little less flappy (as you say).
Inharmonicity seems in no way increased, and basses and mids continue
to "sing" well together.
I really like this bass course set-up with higher tension octave than
bass; it brightens up the natural darkness of the loaded string, and
gives a very satisfying contact with the thumb. I already feel that gut
basses compared to synthetics have a little more "give" before the
release, and this effect is increased here, as the bass gives initially
a little more than the following Venice octave.
I don't think this would work well with an HT octave, and whether this
partice is historic, is still open to question.
But as you say, "Different lutes, different standards of performance &
response, different strokes, different folks. I imagine there was not
much more uniformity in the old days as now."
I think Benjamin has a higher loaded bass tension than I have, but I
don't think his octaves (which are HT Baldock) are at a higher tension
than his basses (so perhaps our over-all course tension might be fairly
close). I think this could give him more bass presence than my set-up,
but he is quite able to control that, and his bass line does remain
superbly articulated.
Nevertheless, perhaps, one argument pointing to compatibilty of my
choice with French 11c French baroque taste, might be that there are a
number of indications that at least one French school seems to have
shunned extreme bass (or at least bass prominence at the expense of
other voices), and sought rather for cohesion between Basses and
Meanes. This indeed I do get with a high tension Venice Meanes octave.
Without citing the literature in detail, we can remember, the Burwell
quote relating to the reasons for the removing, by some players, of the
great 11th, and the dislike among some French lutensists, of the uneven
tone between basses and Meanes said to have been achieved with the long
courses of a 12c lute.
Furthermore, the practice of playing just the octaves in some passages
of French baroque music, is far more satisfying, when the octave is a
moderately high tension Meanes, rather than a thin HT. This makes the
idea of removing the great 11th more understandable, the octave still
has a good sound to it, although of course, if players actually did
remove the 11th course bass, they may have put on a much thicker octave
(I seem to rememember that the Burwell quote can be interpreted as
such).
Mace does suggest using a Meanes octave from 7c down, which could imply
that the octave was fairly thick, thus needing a more supple Meanes
string (but he gives no details, so this is just one possible
interpretation).
However, it would be nice to have details of bridge string holes that
are at least compatible with my set-up (although the hole only
indicates the maximum possible string diameter, not the actual
diameter). Iconography remains another possible witness to such
practices, but can artistic interpretations of such small differences
be relied on as certain proof of such a practice; so I must just
conclude for the moment that my bass course set-up does seem to go well
with the French Baroque music I am playing at present, but then so does
Benjamin's set-up.
Until recently, it has been almost impossible for synthetic string
users to carry out such string experiments, compatible with advice from
Mace, Dowland, etc; but as Mimmo's synthetic string experiments are
based on his interpretation of historic gut theory, his future flexible
Meanes, and loaded basses should open open up such a possibility: it
would be possible to use stiff NG on Trebles (1,2,3) and the 6th
octave, but flexible NG on Meanes (4,5) and possibly also the 6th of a
six course lute, and on octaves from the 7th bass octave down, and then
loaded NG on basses from 6c down.
This should, as you say, should give smooth transitions between Meanes
and Basses as the material is tonally the same (just differeing in
flexibility), but also a superior cohesion beween Basses and Meanes,
particularly if Flexible NG is used on the Bass octaves; but I don't
want to raise hopes too much, as Mimmo can only carry out experiments
in his spare time.
I incline with you in hoping these synthetic strings will not become
available "instead" of the similar gut strings, but alongside them,
permitting greater flexibility; but I am also aware of the huge work
programme all this implies for Mimmo.
Best wishes
Anthony
PS Of course I have nothing against wirewounds per-se. A recent
"comparative" concert of gut bass strung lute and baroque wooden flute,
followed by wirewound strung guitar and modern metal flute, just showed
how well both go with each other: the redder valve-like sounds of the
gut basses with the wooden flute, and the silver-blue colder
transistor-like sound of the guitar wirewounds with the metal lute.
__________________________________________________________________
De : Daniel Winheld <[email protected]>
A : Anthony Hind <[email protected]>
Cc : "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Envoye le : Vendredi 11 Novembre 2011 20h46
Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: Savarez KF dealer in USA?
Anthony.
That is good news, ameliorating the stiffness of the same material for
a smooth transition to courses 5, 6, and maybe 7 as well? I eliminated
wirewounds from my own lutes years ago; not for any purist/snob/HIP
reasons but just because I could not abide them, although I would
periodically try for convenience, economy, stability, etc. But they
would always come off, sooner or later. At this time I do have one,
single overspun on one of my instruments, a solid silver wound/gut core
light tension 5th string G for bass viol that is doing duty as the 13
course fundamental AA on my Baroque lute. Transitions well to the 1st
generation Peruffo loaded gut 12th fundamental.
The latest generation of Mimmo's loaded gut basses (type C, I think)
are unavailable. I really hope he can come up with loaded new nylgut
and resume production of the loaded gut, because they really are the
best in my opinion. I can only use the alternatives in very limited
specific instances: KF(G) for mid bass range, and Dan Larson's Gimps
and Pistoys (for lower than 6th course) seem to work best for me only
on the Larson lute 8 course lute. Sort of cool- magical but logical,
that his strings match his lutes for best response.
For diapasons on archlutes, I really think the KFG is a sort of magic
bullet. Very happy with them on my small archlute. Don't crave or need
anything else at this time.
Not one of my students has ever wanted to continue using wirewounds
after hearing and trying my instruments, although sometimes they have
to for the usual reasons. As for Benjamin's high tensions (would love
to know the specifics) I have gone back to relatively higher tension on
my Baroque lute after playing with Toyohiko Satoh's suggested ultra low
tension. Different lutes, different standards of performance &
response, different strokes, different folks. I imagine there was not
much more uniformity in the old days as now. The higher tension basses
(midrange & trebles at "Larson medium") stay in tune better, have more
punch, less slap-happy, and the lute doesn't seem to mind.
Regards,
Dan
On Nov 11, 2011, at 7:27 AM, Anthony Hind wrote:
> Dear Daniel and Ernesto
> As I told the list a while back, after making a stiffer
new
> Nylgut, Mimmo (in his rare spare time) is working on a more flexible
> (slightly elastic) version for thicker strings. There is already
> excellent feedback for some prototypes. These would be useable on 5
and
> 6 course and possibly 4th (presumably having characteristics close
to a
> flexible Venice) but a slightly different variant would be good for
> Theorbo.
> Mimmo is still working on a loaded version of this elastic NG, which
> could mean that we may, hopefully, hear less wirewounds on lutes in
the
> near future.
> Unfortunately, meanwhile, I have the impression that loaded gut
strings
> have remained unavailable.
> Benjamin Narvey's latest baroque lute concert here in Paris
testified
> to the superb harmonicity of these loaded Venices which, through
their
> ultra low impedance, can allow a skillfull luthenist to achieve a
rare
> and wonderful singing cohesion between bass and mid lines (in spite
of
> Benjamin's fairly high bass string tension).
> A truly superb sound quality and performance achieved again by
> Benjamin!
> Regards
> Anthony
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> De : Daniel Winheld <[1][email protected]>
> A : "[2][email protected]" <[3][email protected]>
>
> Ernesto-
> Good point- I have been wanting to get feedback on the New Nylgut;
they
> have been out for over a year now & I have had mostly good results
with
> them and would like other's opinions. On my tenor vihuela they have
> really enhanced the overall sound, albeit not quite as purely
beautiful
> as gut. The New Nygut works best on this vihuela (Chambure copy by
> Harris & Barber) down to the 4th course; but it is inferior to the
.95
> KFG unison 5th course and out of the question for the 6th, where
like
> Martin Shepherd I also prefer the KFG.
> On my Baroque lute (an old Robert Lundberg model, needs all the help
it
> can get) I am not completely sold yet, but I will be keeping them on
> for a while. New Nylgut is fine right down to & including the 5th
> course, then the KFG starting at the 6th. My 6 course & 8 course
> completely gut except for the 1st on the 8 course, and it
transitions
> to the gut courses better than the other synthetics I have used in
the
> past.
> Dan
> On Nov 9, 2011, at 9:20 AM, [1][4][email protected] wrote:
>> Have you tried the New Nylgut from Aquila?
>> Lutenists here in Brazil love them!
--
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