Greetings, Anthony. Well, you, of all people, quite certainly can grasp the problems involved here. Du Pont regularly announces, with great pomp, their new creation of an absolutely perfect spider silk imitation, to only, without any pomp at all, quietly retreat until the next announcement. The last such announcement was just the last year. Now there is hardly any mentioning of it, except for the christian doomsday sites, as in this last instance Du Pont was using genetically pickled goats, to produce silk instead of, the more common, milk. For us, the string connoisseurs, having a goat with an exchangeable variable nipple extruder tips for the most common lute string sizes, and a chance, on feeding the animal some copper powder, to have our own perfectly loaded basses, - would be perfect, don't you say? While spider silk sounds extremely attractive, particularly to the military killer gadget junkies, in fact to a lutanist, please understand this, it is a disappointing distraction. There is a plethora of natural materials (to name but hemp and linen fibers, and, especially - discarded fingernail shavings) which, if arranged on the same, not very microscopic level, as spiders' signal line (the most closely befitting to be a musical string, not like a war monkeys salivatizing drag line - just google "drag line kevlar"), can produce a musical string with infinitely adjustable qualities, to match gut or what not. Only if the same amount of time, research and funding is applied. No need for genetically adjusted goats. For crying out loud, they made bulletproof materials out of both - hemp and linen, does this tell you what is possible? I have made, in a conventional manner, just by twisting and glueing, both linen and hemp gamba strings, which not only were more durable then gut or silk, but sounded on par. Now imagine if these fibers plus some keratin and collagen would be liquified and ran through the microfluidics extruder mimicking the spider line arrangement - there is your perfect string. I'm sure they will get to this as soon as they kill off enough people to finally notice all the lute players there. If we really want THEM to notice US...
alexander r. On Fri, 09 Mar 2012 14:00:24 +0000 (GMT) Anthony Hind <[email protected]> wrote: > Alexander, Thanks for these links. I would agree that the detailed mechanics > of spider's silk is beyond most of us on this list (beginning with myself), > but I am wondering whether the reported elasticity of some spider's web silk, > might make it better for creating Meanes and bass strings, as opposed to > stiffer? spider and silk worm cocoon silk (perhaps better for trebles, but > just letting my imagination run riot, I admit). > % > As I understand it, the big problem would be the ammount of webs or > cocoons needed. I read that in 1709, a Frenchman, Bon de Saint-Hilaire, made > silk material with it, but it needed 1.3 million > spider cocoons to produce one kilogram of silk. > http://ednieuw.home.xs4all.nl/Spiders/InfoNed/webthread.html > % > It seems that the "nano" complexity of the micro spatial arrangements of the > filaments is beginning to be understood: "Inspired by spider silk, a > naturally occurring strong and stretchy > substance, MIT researchers have now devised a way to produce a material > that begins to mimic this combination of desirable properties." > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070119115103.htm(and also "MIT > researchers Sinan Keten and Markus J. Buehler have developed and applied a > framework for predicting the nanostructure of spider silk using atomistic > principles." > http://www.nanowerk.com/spotlight/spotid=15880.php) > % > That might seem to be the way to go (synthesizing it), rather than attempting > to harvest spider silk, even by genetic mutation. However, I imagine we might > be a long way off actually being able to use this material for music strings. > That is probably the last interest of these MIT searchers. > % > But "Spun fibres, natural and man-made, rely on the extrusion process to > facilitate molecular orientation and bonding." > http://www.nature.com/nmat/journal/v5/n11/full/nmat1762.html > Thus could extrusion polymer flow theory(rheology) perhaps be used to clarify > our understanding of natural silk spinning, and that in turn be translatable > to models for extruding artificial silk, and even musical string production > (as this article, above, which I haven't been able to read fully, seems to > suggest). > $ > I am very very dimly grasping what this might involve, and suppose it is all > rather a long way off? > and imagine there is still a call for natural silk strings, and hope you will > keep us informed about your research in this area. > Regards > Anthony > (appologies for any confusion, but as you say this complex topic is rather > beyond me) > > > > > ________________________________ > De : alexander <[email protected]> > À : Ron Andrico <[email protected]> > Cc : [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] > Envoyé le : Mercredi 7 mars 2012 15h54 > Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread (objective blind > test?) > > I seriously doubt there is an interest in the mechanics > of the subject on this list, which are rather complex. It matters to say > that the spider silk research is an immensely long and difficult endeavor, > without a clear end in sight. The > cultured silk research, going on for some 600 years, still regularly > surprises the heck out of itself. > It is generally agreed that, with small variations, all the silks, be it > moths or spiders, or some fishes and mammals (yes!) consist of pretty much > the same elements - fibroin, based on the proteins similar to our hair and > fingernails, just in somewhat different proportions and mixtures, and a glue > holding filaments together, in case of moths and spiders - sericin. > The sometimes enormous strength of spider silk results not from its' > composition, but rather from the spacial arrangement of the filaments, > supported by the smart bends and nicks with a judicial dab of glue here and > there, both on a micro and macro level. and this is where the enormous amount > of research goes on. TO make a useful musical strings, this spacial > arrangement needs to be overcome and some new one created, which cancels all > the wonderful inventiveness the spider just put > into the process... The glue bits are melted in the process, and the fancy > curly hair go straight, as the perm in the shower. Sure it gives the one who > makes such a string a painless pastime, and lots of it, and then respect for > being persistent, and girls and free drinks that follow. But as far as the > string goes, - nothing fancy here, exactly because of the necessary > straightening of the tiny filaments to arrange them laterally into the > string. This destroys the fancy spider's footwork. > Curiously enough, the gut strings, on the other hand, completely preserve the > latices of arrangement among the filaments, as they are too strong and too > fancy to be destroyed by the processing and stretching. You see, the gut is > never taken apart into tiny filaments, as silk is. This gives gut strings all > the qualities we all love and enjoy. > TO see the following links, remove spaces in http. > h t t > p://web.mit.edu/course/3/3.064/www/slides/Ko_spider_silk.pdf > h t t p://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2012/01/spider-silk-va > h t t > p://theheritagetrust.wordpress.com/2012/01/25/rare-spider-silk-textile-on-display-at-the-victoria-albert-museum/ > > > alexander r. > > > On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 13:23:12 +0000 > Ron Andrico <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I feel inclined to point out that we have one of the foremost > > authorities on silk strings contributing to this list, Alex Rakov. > > While spider silk may vary slightly from typical silkworm stuff, I'm > > sure they behave in a similar fashion. Alex? > > RA To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
