Monica,
Smaller Catholic churches may or may not have had the performing
resources to present much in the way of elaborate polyphony, but they
would have certainly had plainchant either sung by hired singers or the
priests and deacons themselves. By and large, the congregation did not
participate in singing. Church music practice up until relatively
recent times would be a far cry from the "happy-clappy" stuff, which
was introduced in an attempt to get people more involved. Remember,
too, that aside from the ordinary and proper items, large portions of
the Mass were recited by the priests to formulaic psalm tones. In some
cases, the entire service was sung throughout.
As Mass attendance in olden times was mandatory, even the lowliest,
illiterate peasant would have been very familiar with what we tend to
think of as fairly high brow repertoire. It is hard to believe that
this music wouldn't have functioned as a (possibly subconscious)
cultural lingua franca in non-church items.
Chris
Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A.
Music Faculty
Nazareth College, Rochester, NY
State University of New York at Geneseo
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
--- On Fri, 3/16/12, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
The kind of church music that we are thinking of would have been
performed in cathedrals and other important church establishments but
the average person would not have attended services in such prestigious
locations and if they had any music at all at their parish churches it
would probably have been the equivalent of today's happy clappy.
The other thing is that secular music doesn't leave such a voluminous
paper trail behind it and obviously a lot of it was semi-improvised.
Fascinating topic though.
Monica
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Andrico"
<[1]praelu...@hotmail.com>
To: <[2]l...@pantagruel.de>
Cc: <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 12:36 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules correction!
> Dear Mark:
> Thanks for your considerate response. Of course we are aiming for
the
> same thing from different directions: The thought occurs to me
that, in
> Europe, there probably is a plentiful supply of choral groups
> dominating the early music scene with concerts of sacred polyphony,
and
> Pantagruel likely provides a lively alternative with well-chosen
themed
> concerts. Here in the US, it seems to be the other way round.
While
> we are more than happy to indulge in some lowdown funky music (at
least
> I am), there are several groups here filling the secular early
music
> niche. Funny that.
> As for the 'TV' reference, we thought you were showing your
erudition
> by referencing the Latin, tempus veritas.
> Best,
> RA
> > Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 00:58:52 +0100
> > To: [4]praelu...@hotmail.com
> > CC: [5]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > From: [6]l...@pantagruel.de
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules correction!
> >
> > Dear Ron,
> >
> > Hmmm, just seen that my mail included a bit that I wanted to
discard
> and did not finish - "This may sound cynical, but TV"
> >
> > That we both feel that our world-views are underrepresented, is
> somewhat amusing and in the end on the grand scale of things EM
anyway
> plays so small a role in the 21st century culture that it is not
really
> worth bickering about :)
> >
> > All the best
> > Mark
> >
> > On Mar 16, 2012, at 12:43 AM, Mark Wheeler wrote:
> >
> > > I actually feel quite the opposite, that polyphonic religious
music
> is over emphasized in our view of 16th century music. Whole secular
> repertoires such as the Villotta have been ignored and also
> misrepresented, largely because they do not fit into the western
> classical music metanarrative.
> > >
> > > Even as early as the first musical prints of Petrucci and
Antico it
> was actually secular songs that outsold Latin Church Music. The
church
> music was maybe viewed as more prestigious, in thatyou could get
some
> rich guy to cough up some money to subsidize it. But what people
were
> actually performing and listening to was what our good old friend
> Taruskin describes as "humble vernacular songs", almost certainly
> including the guy who got his name on the front of the motets
edition.
> This may sound cynical, but TV
> > >
> > > I am sure that if you added up all the concerts of renaissance
> church music and those of renaissance secular music in all major
early
> music festivals last year, you would find that the religious is not
so
> badly represented after all.
> > >
> > > Also the christian worldview is one that is familiar to most
> western Europeans today, both to those who believe in it or not.
But
> the number of thinkers in the renaissance that diverged from the
> orthodox christian worldview, even to the region of atheism are not
so
> well known.
> > >
> > > All the best
> > > Mark
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mar 15, 2012, at 11:50 PM, Ron Andrico wrote:
> > >
> > >> No problem with the good music, which is obviously up to your
> usual standard of playing. I do feel, as Monica pointed out
earlier,
> that today we seem to have a collective need to discount the role
of
> the sacred music context of the 16th century by projecting our
modern
> sensibilities backward in time. Why? Why not simply accept that
> religion played a significant and daily role in nearly everyone's
life
> at the time? (That is, of course in the European context.)
> > >>
> > >> This is a difficult thing to prove, but I am nearly certain
that
> ANY musician of the age and at the time was first trained to sing
> utilitarian sacred music. If he showed promise, he was given the
> opportunity to develop skill on an instrument as a useful addition
to
> the task of singing for daily mass and devotionals. In fact, given
the
> surviving biographical information on most known composers and
> noteworthy musicians from the time, it would be very difficult to
> disprove this premise.
> > >>
> > >> That is not to say that we have to judge the importance or
quality
> of every simple dance tune against polyphonic masses and motets
from
> the time. It is simply good interpretive practice to attempt to
grasp
> the context of music from a time and place. Musicians of the 16th
> century lived at a time when the sacred and the secular were better
> integrated. Why deny this? It's not as though we have to duplicate
> every aspect of 16th century life in order to play the music. I,
for
> one, can do without the body lice, lack of sanitation, rampant
disease
> and absence of opportunity for upward mobility. That doesn't mean I
> deny those conditions existed.
> > >>
> > >> RA
> > >>
> > >>> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 23:17:21 +0100
> > >>> To: [7]praelu...@hotmail.com
> > >>> CC: [8]magg...@sonic.net; [9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > >>> From: [10]l...@pantagruel.de
> > >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for church attendance
> > >>>
> > >>> I actually often get the feeling that the secular elements of
> renaissance culture are rather underplayed in EM today. And so to
get
> back to a more Apollyon muse here is a bit of Holborne and
Rabelais's
> Abbey of Thelema.
> > >>>
> > >>> [11]http://youtu.be/tteepyzRPrE
> > >>>
> > >>> All the best
> > >>> Mark
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Mar 15, 2012, at 1:31 PM, Ron Andrico wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Just an additional point. If you are wondering what this
topic
> has to
> > >>>> do with the focus of this discussion list, it has everything
to
> do with
> > >>>> the lute. It's a difficult proposition but imagine what lute
> music
> > >>>> from the 16th century would sound like if it originated from
a
> > >>>> completely secular, even atheistic context.
> > >>>> RA
> > >>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:22:47 +0000
> > >>>>> To: [12]magg...@sonic.net; [13]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > >>>>> From: [14]praelu...@hotmail.com
> > >>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for church attendance
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Very good point by you, Gary. The Church, for all its
faults,
> was and
> > >>>>> is a gathering place, and music was and is a powerful
influence
> that
> > >>>>> can be used to enhance religious experience. Today, we
don't
> seem to
> > >>>>> like situations that require actual 'face time' and it's so
> much
> > >>>> easier
> > >>>>> to communicate via the internet. I personally avoid
Facebook
> (which I
> > >>>>> call MyFace, since no one seems to give a hoot about what
> anyone else
> > >>>>> has to say) with its utter lack of the observable
indicators
> and
> > >>>>> authentic results of real human interaction. But Donna
says,
> rightly
> > >>>>> so, we must be visible there.
> > >>>>> In my opinion, sharing a video or sound clip on Facebook is
not
> the
> > >>>>> same thing as experiencing the collective focus of a
gathering
> of
> > >>>>> people moved to worship by the power of a Mass by Josquin
or
> Byrd.
> > >>>>> RA
> > >>>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 04:19:43 -0700
> > >>>>>> To: [15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > >>>>>> From: [16]magg...@sonic.net
> > >>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Obviously you were not the demographic they were looking
for,
> Ed. I
> > >>>>> think
> > >>>>>> what happened was a move away from a contemplative
approach to
> > >>>>> religiousity
> > >>>>>> to a social/interactive approach. Maybe we could trace the
> origins
> > >>>> of
> > >>>>>> "Facebook" to the abandoning of the Latin Mass.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Gary
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>>>>> From: "Edward Martin" <[17]e...@gamutstrings.com>
> > >>>>>> To: <[18]do...@tiscali.it>; <[19]chriswi...@yahoo.com>;
> > >>>>> <[20]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
> > >>>>>> Cc: <[21]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 6:36 AM
> > >>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Interesting concept. Yes, many churches have abandoned
their
> old
> > >>>>>>> beautiful music, in favor of this guitar strumming,
poorly
> > >>>>> composed,
> > >>>>>>> boring music.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> This trend of abandoning art music, in favor of
mediocrity
> with
> > >>>> the
> > >>>>>>> idea that it appeals to the masses, keeps me away.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> ed
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> At 07:37 AM 3/14/2012, [22]do...@tiscali.it wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> Chris,
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> the concept is so well expressed..
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Donatella
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> ----Messaggio
> > >>>>>>>> originale----
> > >>>>>>>> Da: [23]chriswi...@yahoo.com
> > >>>>>>>> Data: 14/03/2012 13.29
> > >>>>>>>> A:
> > >>>>>>>> <[24]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>,
> "[25]do...@tiscali.it"<[26]do...@tiscali.it>
> > >>>>>>>> Cc:
> > >>>>>>>> <[27]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > >>>>>>>> Ogg: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Donatella,
> > >>>>>>>> In America the change in music came much earlier, in
> > >>>>>>>> many places
> > >>>>>>>> preceding the Second Vatican Council. The Catholic
> > >>>>>>>> Church in America
> > >>>>>>>> took great pride in dissociating itself from "old
> > >>>>>>>> world ways" by
> > >>>>>>>> rejecting chant and polyphony. In its place, they
> > >>>>>>>> replaced these
> > >>>>>>>> traditions with very poor pseudo-folk music. I
> > >>>>>>>> suppose this was done in
> > >>>>>>>> order to provide "hip" music to attract
> > >>>>>>>> young people, under the
> > >>>>>>>> assumption that no one under 30 can stand
> > >>>>>>>> still long enough to
> > >>>>>>>> appreciate beauty. Unfortunately, the resultant
> > >>>>>>>> music was some hideous
> > >>>>>>>> hybrid that succeeded in being neither
> > >>>>>>>> appropriately sacred nor in any
> > >>>>>>>> way interesting to young people. At
> > >>>>>>>> any rate, young people stayed away
> > >>>>>>>> in droves, largely because of
> > >>>>>>>> this smaltzy stuff. Still, these very
> > >>>>>>>> same wannabe hippy songs - now
> > >>>>>>>> approaching 50 years old - and the
> > >>>>>>>> stated need to use them to
> > >>>>>>>> attract young people are repeated ad
> > >>>>>>>> nauseum.
> > >>>>>>>> One of the
> > >>>>>>>> great unwritten-about artistic travesties of the 20th
> > >>>>>>>> century is the
> > >>>>>>>> fact that this entire repertoire, which replaced a
> > >>>>>>>> still-living
> > >>>>>>>> century's old tradition, was not called for by any
Church
> > >>>>>>>> decree,
> > >>>>>>>> but was largely engineered by the publishing company
Oregan
> > >>>>>>>> Catholic
> > >>>>>>>> Press. If you go to practically any church in the
country
> you
> > >>>>>>>> will
> > >>>>>>>> find the same poor quality songs from the 1960's and
1970's
> in
> > >>>> the
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> hymnals. This is not due to regulation, but rather a
> publishing
> > >>>>> deal.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Chris
> > >>>>>>>> Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A.
> > >>>>>>>> Music Faculty
> > >>>>>>>> Nazareth
> > >>>>>>>> College, Rochester, NY
> > >>>>>>>> State University of New York at Geneseo
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
> > >>>>>>>> www.christopherwilke.com
> > >>>>>>>> --- On
> > >>>>>>>> Wed, 3/14/12, [28]do...@tiscali.it
<[29]do...@tiscali.it> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> From:
> > >>>>>>>> [30]do...@tiscali.it <[31]do...@tiscali.it>
> > >>>>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules
> > >>>>>>>> for jazz performers
> > >>>>>>>> To: [32]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
> > >>>>>>>> Cc: lute@cs.
> > >>>>>>>> dartmouth.edu
> > >>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, March 14, 2012, 3:49 AM
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I
> > >>>>>>>> googled, in Italian, and this came out
> > >>>> [1][33]http://www.giovaninsede.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> it/animazione-liturgica.php , there are no notes as
music is
> not
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> thaught in the same way as abroad, so average people can
> > >>>> sometimes
> > >>>>> read
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> chords ( sigh) and that is. You can get an idea. I used
to
> go to
> > >>>>>>>> Mass
> > >>>>>>>> as a child, and songs which were sung were possibly
ancient
> and
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> complex, often in Latin, then when the previous Pope
came,
> he
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> destroyed that part, I guess to make audience ( sad to
say,
> but
> > >>>>> that
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> is), so that songs became the poorest, musically
speaking,
> you
> > >>>> can
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> imagine, accompanied by guitar, organ was heard now and
> then. It
> > >>>>> was
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> part of a "renovation" of which I can give an example:
in
> the
> > >>>>> village
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> where I go on holiday , there is a Chapel with a
Renaissance
> > >>>>>>>> painting.
> > >>>>>>>> It needed restoring, but it was visible. Well , it was
> > >>>>>>>> covered with a
> > >>>>>>>> representation of a black Madonna ( I can't think of
> > >>>>>>>> the proper name
> > >>>>>>>> right now) which is not even of any artistic value.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> To me listening to
> > >>>>>>>> the Mass became a real suffering, this is not
> > >>>>>>>> the main reason why I
> > >>>>>>>> quit, but I did.
> > >>>>>>>> Lute and theorbo are
> > >>>>>>>> allowed, I have been asked
> > >>>>>>>> several times to play a piece during the
> > >>>>>>>> mass ( but I have not done it
> > >>>>>>>> up to now)
> > >>>>>>>> Donatella
> > >>>>>>>> ----
> > >>>>>>>> Messaggio originale----
> > >>>>>>>> Da:
> > >>>>>>>> [2][34]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
> > >>>>>>>> Data:
> > >>>>>>>> 14/03/2012 1.06
> > >>>>>>>> A: "Lute Net"<lute@cs.
> > >>>>>>>> dartmouth.edu>
> > >>>>>>>> Ogg:
> > >>>>>>>> [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers
> > >>>>>>>> On Mar
> > >>>>>>>> 13, 2012, at 4:
> > >>>>>>>> 01 PM, Tony wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> The Church's doctrine on
> > >>>>>>>> liturgical music
> > >>>>>>>> can be summarized in seven
> > >>>>>>>>> points ....
> > >>>>>>>> Doubtless
> > >>>>>>>> there are
> > >>>>>>>> listers who know more about this than I do, but this
list
> > >>>>>>>> seems like
> > >>>>>>>> a compilation of things that have been said on the
subject
> > >>>>>>>> over the
> > >>>>>>>> centuries, rather than functioning doctrine. A lot of it
is
> > >>>>>>>> pre-
> > >>>>>>>> Vatican II. The one about guitars, for example, is
obviously
> > >>>> forty
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> or fifty years years out of date. Try googling: catholic
> mass
> > >>>>> guitar
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> (no quotes). Apparently the current pope Benedict
doesn't
> like
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> guitars.
> > >>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
[3][35]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >>>>>>>> E' nata
> > >>>>>>>> indoona: chiama, videochiama e messaggia Gratis. Scarica
> > >>>>>>>> indoona per
> > >>>>>>>> iPhone, Android e PC: [4][36]http://www.indoona.com/
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> References
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> 1. [37]http://www.giovaninsede/
> > >>>>>>>> 2. file://localhost/mc/compose?
> > >>>>>>>> to=[38]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
> > >>>>>>>> 3. [39]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-
> > >>>>>>>> admin/index.html
> > >>>>>>>> 4. [40]http://www.indoona.com/
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> E' nata indoona: chiama, videochiama e messaggia Gratis.
> Scarica
> > >>>>>>>> indoona per iPhone, Android e PC:
[41]http://www.indoona.com/
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Edward Martin
> > >>>>>>> 2817 East 2nd Street
> > >>>>>>> Duluth, Minnesota 55812
> > >>>>>>> e-mail: [42]e...@gamutstrings.com
> > >>>>>>> voice: (218) 728-1202
> > >>>>>>>
[43]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
> > >>>>>>> [44]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
> > >>>>>>> [45]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> > >>>>> ---------
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
> > >>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > >>>>>> Version: 9.0.927 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4271 - Release
> Date:
> > >>>>> 03/14/12
> > >>>>>> 12:34:00
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
>
--
References
1. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=praelu...@hotmail.com
2. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=l...@pantagruel.de
3. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=praelu...@hotmail.com
5. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
6. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=l...@pantagruel.de
7. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=praelu...@hotmail.com
8. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=magg...@sonic.net
9. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
10. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=l...@pantagruel.de
11. http://youtu.be/tteepyzRPrE
12. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=magg...@sonic.net
13. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
14. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=praelu...@hotmail.com
15. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
16. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=magg...@sonic.net
17. file://localhost/mc/compose?to%c3...@gamutstrings.com
18. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=do...@tiscali.it
19. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=chriswi...@yahoo.com
20. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=howardpos...@ca.rr.com
21. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
22. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=do...@tiscali.it
23. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=chriswi...@yahoo.com
24. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=howardpos...@ca.rr.com
25. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=do...@tiscali.it
26. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=do...@tiscali.it
27. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
28. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=do...@tiscali.it
29. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=do...@tiscali.it
30. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=do...@tiscali.it
31. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=do...@tiscali.it
32. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=howardpos...@ca.rr.com
33. http://www.giovaninsede/
34. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=howardpos...@ca.rr.com
35. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
36. http://www.indoona.com/
37. http://www.giovaninsede/
38. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=howardpos...@ca.rr.com
39. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-
40. http://www.indoona.com/
41. http://www.indoona.com/
42. file://localhost/mc/compose?to%c3...@gamutstrings.com
43. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
44. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
45. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
