CORRECTION For "As far as I am aware, there is historical information about this matter...." read "As far as I am aware, there is no historical information about this matter...."
mhls Martyn --- On Wed, 11/4/12, Martyn Hodgson <[email protected]> wrote: From: Martyn Hodgson <[email protected]> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute? To: "lute" <[email protected]>, "Anthony Hart" <[email protected]> Date: Wednesday, 11 April, 2012, 16:26 Dear Anthony, As far as I am aware, there is historical information about this matter and, clearly, extant instruments will have deformed over time so that modern drawings (even if wholly accurate) may tell us little about what the original maker was aiming for. But since you asked for views here are mine. The uppermost pegbox nut needs to be disposed so that there is indeed a clearance of the low basses at the principal nut otherwise, unless the most gentle stroke is employed, these strings will rattle against the fingerboard. The precise amount of clearance is debatable: on one theorbo (double re-entrant 92 cm fingered/170 basses - all single) at the principal nut I have a clearance of the low basses above the fingerboard at around 6mm - but less may be possible if playing gently and more may be desirable if the play if very forceful or if the player is causing the string to vibrate too much up and down rather than from side to side. But note that this clearance is after the neck has come up as a resulting of bringing the instrument up to tension. - over time this pull-up increases and adjustments need to be made to the upper nut to maintain the clearance. On my smaller theorbo with just the first course down (76cm double fingered/145cm single basses) I see I also have around 6mm. And on my own 14c liuto attiorbato (sadly little played) with 7 octaved basses of 93cm and 7 fingered of 64cm I currently have a clearance of 5mm but recall it was set finer when first made and, being much shorter and comparatively stiffer than a theorbo upper neck, it has pulled up very little over time. Others may have different views depending on their own preferred clearances rgds Martyn --- On Wed, 11/4/12, Anthony Hart <[1][email protected]> wrote: From: Anthony Hart <[2][email protected]> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute? To: "lute" <[3][email protected]> Date: Wednesday, 11 April, 2012, 10:51 whilst on the subject of lute set up, I have a question of the action of the bass courses of a 14c Liuto attiorbato. I have found several suggestions concerning the ideal height of the bass strings above the finger board. 1. The strings should be about 5mm at the lower nut. 2. The strings should be in the same plane as the stopped strings. From observation from drawings: 1. A drawing of the 1639 Sellas instrument (upon which my instrument is based)by Robert Lundberg the top nut appears to be slightly lower than the line of the finger board. Also the upper nut appears to have a slight curve, as with a violin bridge, making the lowest course slightly lower than the preceding ones. 2. A drawing of the Railich instrument shows the line of the bass courses higher than the stopped ones. These observations are based on the thumbnail views from the appropriate websites so exact measurements not possible. Any other ideas? Many thanks Anthony > David, > Clearly the overall size of an instrument and things like string spacing are relevant to the ease of playing. But if a player struggles > with a particular size and/or specification of lute, before jumping to > erroneous conclusions it's important to see if the player's posture and > hand position/technique are not the real culprits. > Regarding the 'wrong' size instrument: a player may seem to struggle with a larger instrument than that they are used to simply because they > are holding it an unsuitable/inappropriate manner - rather that their arms/hands are intrinsically incapable of the stretch required. For example, if a player holds a large lute instrument as a modern 'classical' guitar (ie cradled low down in the lap and at a relatively > low angle to the ground) they may find left arm stretch difficulties which can readily be overcome by adopting a posture with the instrument > resting on the right thigh (as often seen in early representations). This can result in the instrument now being held some 10/15cm to the player's right and bringing the nut a similar distance closer to the left hand and so stretches which had previously seemed difficult may be > more readily achieved. Holding a large instrument in a more upright position also helps since it better fits with the > arm/body geometry and increases the effective stretch of the left arm. > The end result of all this is to give up to 15cm extra left arm stretch > and thus increasing the effective left arm stretch from, say, 76cm string length to around 90cm. > Similarly, if a player is playing well up to the rose rather than close > to the bridge, the natural tapering of string separation from bridge to > nut will result in a small, but noticeable, reduction in string separation at the actual plucking point which is not the fault of the string spacing at the bridge but of the player's own technique. Finally, specifically with regard to the theorbo, as Lynda Sayce points out ([1][1][4]http://www.theorbo.com/Theorbo/Theorbo.htm), if a theorbo player is trying to employ ordinary lute fingered chords, rather than those appropriate to the theorbo, they may also struggle. In short, before blaming an instrument's size and specification the player should look to themselves first and ensure the problem isn't with their own posture and technique. > Martyn > --- On Mon, 9/4/12, David Tayler <[2][5][email protected]> wrote: > From: David Tayler <[3][6][email protected]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? > To: "lute" <[4][7][email protected]> > Date: Monday, 9 April, 2012, 22:27 > Ninety percent of the lutes I see are set up wrong and are also the > wrong size for the person playing. I doubt that this will change anytime soon: once someone buys the wrong size instrument, they > either > keep it or trade it in for another one that is the wrong size. So I would rate size and setup as the number one issue, based on my > experience that the player will have to go through a very long retraining period > after learning on a lute that is the wrong size. Why pedal > backwards? > Of the setup issues, the number one issue is the span and spacing. Without the right span and spacing, which reconciles two numbers, > the > size of the hand (and fingers) and the rules which govern the span > and > spacing of strings. Without these two numbers in balance, it is impossible, or very difficult to make a good sound. > When these numbers are in balance, it is easy to make a good sound; > in > fact, it is difficult to make a bad sound. No one would wear size 4 > or > size 11 shoes if they are a size 9, and yet, that is precisely what > happens. Sadly, people are rarely fitted to the lute, even though > the > lute is from the age of "custom made". Equally sadly, most people do > not understand the basic physics of twang, thwack and pluck, which involves some simple experiments with a special bridge and nut that > are > universally adjustable. Generally speaking, and I mean VERY > generally, > the plucking-point spacing is wrong, that is, the place where you actually pluck the string, and it is almost always too narrow. > However, > it is the ratio of the bridge to nut, factoring the string length, > and > figured at YOUR plucking point that gives numbers for the "thou > shalt > not buzz" dimensions. Empirically, anyone can see that the spacing > is > different at any point on the string. > A player with years of experience can give you some advice, after watching you play, about the setup. You may have to compromise > somewhat > on the overall span, or use a sliding scale so that the treble has > more > room. > After these two biggies, there is a seemingly endless list of > features, > all of which are important. And here you will need some experience > to > guide you. > However, I would add that most lutes made nowadays are not copies of > originals. They are rescaled, resized, rebarred, rebridged, reglued, > revarnished. > Available is everything: everything-except-original. > Now, you may want that. Personally, I think everyone needs a reality > check instrument that is a copy of an original. Otherwise, it is > just a > guitar, basically, with wonky pegs. > Since you asked about sound in your list, it is no fun playing a monochromatic instrument of any kind, but that is just a personal preference. I would say most lutes made today lean towards monochromatic. > Main thing is to make a good sound. If you aren't making a beautiful > sound, it isn't you: your lute is set up wrong, is the wrong size, > or > both. > Lute players may think that their feet are the wrong size, but when > you > think about it, this cannot be the case. Everyone is different, and > the > instrument must fit. > My teacher told me that you don't choose a lute, it chooses you. > Maybe > that is true. > dt > __________________________________________________________________ > From: William Samson <[2][5][8][email protected]> > To: Lute List <[3][6][9][email protected]> > Sent: Sat, April 7, 2012 6:25:47 AM > Subject: [LUTE] What makes a good lute? > I haven't really got much to add to the subject line. I've been chatting with Rob about this and various points have emerged I'd > be > interested in hearing what priorities you might put on the various > characteristics of a lute in deciding if it's 'good' or otherwise. > The kinds of things that have come up are (in no particular > order): > * playability (action, string spacing etc) > * sound (which I can't easily define) > * authenticity of design/construction > * materials used > * quality of craftsmanship > * reputation of maker > Of course these are rather broad headings and might easily be > refined, > clarified or broken down. > Thoughts, please? > Bill > -- > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1][4][7][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- > References > 1. [5][8][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- > References > 1. [9][12]http://www.theorbo.com/Theorbo/Theorbo.htm > 2. [10][13]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=willsamson@yaho o.co.uk > 3. [11][14]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] th.edu 4. [12][15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 5. [13][16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- __________________________________________________________________ Anthony Hart MSc, LLCM,ALCM. Musicologist and Independent Researcher Highrise Court 'B', Apt 2, Tigne' Street, Sliema, SLM3174, MALTA Tel: +356 27014791; Mob: +356 9944 9552. e-mail: [14][17][email protected]; web: www.monsignor-reggio.com -- References 1. [18]http://www.theorbo.com/Theorbo/Theorbo.htm 2. [19]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 3. [20]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 4. [21]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 5. [22]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 6. [23]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 7. [24]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. [25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. [26]http://www.theorbo.com/Theorbo/Theorbo.htm 10. [27]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 11. [28]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 12. [29]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 13. [30]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 14. [31]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=research@antoninoreggi o.com -- References 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 4. http://www.theorbo.com/Theorbo/Theorbo.htm 5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. http://www.theorbo.com/Theorbo/Theorbo.htm 13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 17. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 18. http://www.theorbo.com/Theorbo/Theorbo.htm 19. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 20. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 21. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 22. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 23. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 24. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 25. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 26. http://www.theorbo.com/Theorbo/Theorbo.htm 27. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 28. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 29. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 30. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 31. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
