Exactly indeed. Eugene ________________________________________ From: [email protected] [[email protected]] on behalf of Jarosław Lipski [[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 5:37 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
Exactly! Wiadomość napisana przez David Tayler w dniu 1 maj 2012, o godz. 18:02: > I have to say for me I think the available evidence points nowhere. > People can't even agree on whether the pieces are playable on the lute, > and not only that, "playability" is not an indicator of authorship or > orchestration, so who cares? All this stuff about the "original intent" > of the composer is really about the intent about the people who write > the articles. > Shorter Bach: Can't play it? Please practice. Don't like it? Make an > arrangement. > --- On Sun, 4/29/12, Roman Turovsky <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: Roman Turovsky <[email protected]> > Subject: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted > To: "lutenet" <[email protected]> > Date: Sunday, April 29, 2012, 7:42 PM > > Jarek, > I thinks the available evidence pretty much points where Clive thinks > it does, and I am inclined to agree with him, notwithstanding Vasily > Antipov, > an excellent Russian player who actually can perform "Lute Suites" as > written (he knows no technical difficulties). > The "Lute Suites" are simply not performable by an average professional > player (unlike the rest of JSB's works), and that is the ultimate > giveaway > (besides being out of lutenistic character). > RT > From: "JarosAA'aw Lipski" <[1][email protected]> > Roman, > I do not share your dislike for musicology. It pays really big service > to all of us I suppose. It has its rules and trespassing them creates > the effect you are talking about. I am just saying that the available > evidence on so called Lute Suites does not entitle us to make very > definite statements that Bach never ever wrote anything with a lute in > mind apart from 2 small movements in his Passions. It would be not too > difficult to create a contradictory theory, but this kind of > speculation seems to be rather a waste of time. > JL > WiadomoAA>Ae/= napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o > godz. 23:01: >> a geetar then. >> Phrases like "there is some likelihood that item X might very well > could have been item Y" >> may work in some musicological situations, but not in the case of our > "Lute Suites". >> RT >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "JarosAA'aw Lipski" > <[2][email protected]> >> To: <[3][email protected]> >> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:50 PM >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Re: Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted >> >> >>> but in this case a spade is not a spade :) >>> JL >>> >>> >>> WiadomoAA>Ae/= napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o > godz. 22:32: >>> >>>> Yes, >>>> but - >>>> sometimes we have to give up the musicological mumbo-jumbo, >>>> and just call a spade a spade. >>>> RT >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "JarosAA'aw Lipski" > <[4][email protected]> >>>> To: <[5][email protected]> >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:24 PM >>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted >>>> >>>> >>>>> Eugene, >>>>> >>>>> Well, saying that "the evidence would be that Bach did not write > any music specifically intended for solo lute" sounds to me (do correct > me if I'm wrong) a little bit like a definite statement or a final > argument, doesn't it? There is nothing wrong in having doubts and > expressing them publicly, but making new theories is another matter. I > greatly recommend David Ledbetters book "Unaccompanied Bach" (as > mentioned) which deals with all available data concerning this subject > in detail. There are many question marks and unfortunately no simple > answers so far, I am afraid. >>>>> However it can be agreed that there are no so called Bach lute > suites if we understand them the same way that some guitarists used to > believe in past, but then the question is what guitarist and how can we > judge someones knowledge. It's much better to present bare facts > letting people decide what they can make of it, IMHO. >>>>> My 2 cents >>>>> >>>>> Best regards >>>>> >>>>> Jaroslaw >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> WiadomoAA>Ae/= napisana przez Braig, Eugene w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o > godz. 22:01: >>>>> >>>>>> I wholeheartedly agree, jl. Fortunately, I don't believe the > little article discussed here did make any such definitive statements. > I think it did a fair job of presenting evidence with relative > objectivity. >>>>>> >>>>>> Eugene >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: [6][email protected] [[7][email protected]] > on behalf of JarosAA'aw Lipski [[8][email protected]] >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:06 PM >>>>>> To: [9][email protected] >>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted >>>>>> >>>>>> Discussion is always a good thing, the problem begins when > someone makes very definite statements like- the evidence would be > that Bach did not write any music specifically intended for solo lute >>>>>> - or -You know what I am going to say nextaEUR"perhaps you > should sit down >>>>>> I understand that it was addressed to guitar players, but still > we need more evidence before trying to convince someone that A or B is > true. Musicology is a tricky bussiness and there is a lot of > speculation on lute pieces by Bach. I'd rather use some arguments from > available scholarly literature than made ad hoc theories, unless the > reason for this was to stir a discussion. >>>>>> >>>>>> jl >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> WiadomoAA"A| napisana przez [10][email protected] w dniu 26 > kwi 2012, o godz. 20:02: >>>>>> >>>>>>>> ... It's obviously a bit of >>>>>>>> popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that > stuff >>>>>>>> tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly >>>>>>>> literature ever will. > Eugene >>>>>>> I agree. >>>>>>> The interesting thing to me on this topic is the response it is > getting >>>>>>> from the Lute list. Yes, you lutenists who have been at it for > 20 - 30 >>>>>>> years already know this, but I think that in all likelihood, the > rest of the >>>>>>> music world does not. An article like this on a "guitar site" > (nose upturned?) >>>>>>> will probably reach a lot more people, and therefore could be a > good thing, >>>>>>> bringing more attention to lutes from other musical disciplines. > Something >>>>>>> I have noticed in reading liner notes to CDs / LPs is that, for > example, >>>>>>> keyboard afficianodos sometimes seem to be unaware that a Bach > piece >>>>>>> was also arranged by the man himself for other instruments. The > same is >>>>>>> true for violin, etc. >>>>>>> "Any press is good press - even bad press." I personally think > that the more >>>>>>> people write about these things, the better. And if you have > pertinent info that >>>>>>> this writer doesn't seem to have, maybe they would like to know > about it? >>>>>>> Knowledge, especially accurate knowledge, is best shared with > the world. >>>>>>> And anything done to place the word Lute in front of a wider > audience is going >>>>>>> to be good for lutes and lutenists. >>>>>>> I'll look forward to future responses. >>>>>>> Tom >>>>>>>> However, there is at least a fair amount of reference to > primary >>>>>>>> source material (the manuscripts themselves). It's obviously a > bit of >>>>>>>> popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that > stuff >>>>>>>> tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly >>>>>>>> literature ever will. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Eugene >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: [11][email protected] > [mailto:[12][email protected]] On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of Stephan Olbertz Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 4:35 > AM Cc: >>>>>>>> [13][email protected] Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Re: > BachA's Lute >>>>>>>> Suites: This Myth is Busted >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Am 25.04.2012, 22:27 Uhr, schrieb Daniel Winheld > <[14][email protected]>: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The article was aimed at the guitar crowd, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And that's probably why the article is a bit superficial. ;-) A > real >>>>>>>> contribution would need to be in scholarly style. No references > here, >>>>>>>> no mentioning of newer literature (e.g. by Negwer, Dierksen, > Hofmann, >>>>>>>> Ledbetter), lots of statements without evidence. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Stephan >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> still clinging to illusions >>>>>>>>> of lute. It's tough letting go. >>>>>>>>> But he put it all together very nicely, I thought. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 25, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Braig, Eugene wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> While I enjoyed this read, I didn't see anything particularly > new >>>>>>>>>> here. For example, Hopkinson Smith specifically named all > the >>>>>>>>>> sources of Bach's original "lute" music in the liner notes he >>>>>>>>>> drafted for his recording of this music around 30 years ago. > He >>>>>>>>>> also stated their evident non-lute provenance. I have heard > Paul >>>>>>>>>> O'Dette unequivocally state on more than one occasion > something >>>>>>>>>> like "Sorry, Bach did not write for the lute." Etc. I > suspect >>>>>>>>>> that anybody who is still clinging to the notion that Bach >>>>>>>>>> knowingly composed lute music after having had some exposure > to >>>>>>>>>> some reference of the source material either really, really > wants >>>>>>>>>> to believe so to somehow legitimize the lute or is a fan of > modern >>>>>>>>>> classical guitar who wants to somehow legitimize the > perceived >>>>>>>>>> ancestor of his/her own instrument. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> Eugene >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: [15][email protected] > [mailto:[16][email protected]] >>>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of [17][email protected] Sent: Wednesday, > April 25, >>>>>>>>>> 2012 11:58 AM To: [18][email protected]; Luca Manassero > Subject: >>>>>>>>>> [LUTE] [LUTE] BachA's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A very interesting article. I can't wait to see the > responses >>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>> the rest of the list! I am reminded that Walther Gerwig did > an >>>>>>>>>> arrangement of Bach's Cello Suite No.1 in G major, BWV1007. > Very >>>>>>>>>> nice and beautifully played - in Renaissance tuning! >>>>>>>>>> Tom >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>>>>>> [19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Erstellt mit Operas revolutionACURrem E-Mail-Modul: >>>>>>>> [20]http://www.opera.com/mail/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tom Draughon >>>>>>> Heartistry Music >>>>>>> [21]http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html >>>>>>> 714 9th Avenue West >>>>>>> Ashland, WI 54806 >>>>>>> 715-682-9362 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > -- > > References > > 1. file://localhost/mc/[email protected] > 2. file://localhost/mc/[email protected] > 3. file://localhost/mc/[email protected] > 4. file://localhost/mc/[email protected] > 5. file://localhost/mc/[email protected] > 6. file://localhost/mc/[email protected] > 7. file://localhost/mc/[email protected] > 8. file://localhost/mc/[email protected] > 9. file://localhost/mc/[email protected] > 10. file://localhost/mc/[email protected] > 11. file://localhost/mc/[email protected] > 12. file://localhost/mc/[email protected] > 13. file://localhost/mc/[email protected] > 14. file://localhost/mc/[email protected] > 15. file://localhost/mc/[email protected] > 16. file://localhost/mc/[email protected] > 17. file://localhost/mc/[email protected] > 18. file://localhost/mc/[email protected] > 19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html > 20. http://www.opera.com/mail/ > 21. http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html > >
