To avoid misunderstandings I suggest to use the terms for instruments in the language of the most important region in which they were used. So I say "Mandore" to the small 16/17 c. instrument because the main sources are in France. See http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Mandore/Mandore.html http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Mandore/Mandore_Instrumente/Mandore_Instrumente.html http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Mandore/Mandore_Musik/Mandore_Musik.html (not completely finished - and only in German for the moment) The "Mandora" is a German instrument.
Translations are so dangerous! What is a theorbo? In England, in France, in Italy, in Germany? They are different instruments. Nowadays we need a clear definition for all instruments in all centuries - not only the contemporary ones. And so the use of the adequate language can give an important information - perhaps with the prefix "French", "Italian"... Best, Andreas Am 21.01.2013 um 19:01 schrieb Monica Hall: > Interesting list. Most of them are late and do the sources actually say that > the pieces are for guitar? In most cases it may just be that the tablature > is 4 lines and the tuning matches. > > Tyler says of the first one that the pieces were probably copied in 1570s - > but how does he know that? > > I have actually seen the manuscript in the Royal Academy of Music - in fact > I have a copy of it. It is 17th century rather than 16th and it belonged to > Robert Spencer. > > The 4-course music in Concerto Vago > is for the chitarrino a quatro corde alla > napolitana which may be a small lute or mandora. > > And as for Boetischer - well he is very unreliable - deliberately > misrepresented things because he was a Nazi and anti-semitic. I have just > been reading an article about Neusidler and he disparaged him for that reason. > > Best > > Monica > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary R. Boye" <boy...@appstate.edu> > To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>; "Lutelist" > <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 5:26 PM > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto > > >> Dear Monica, >> >> I have a few more sources listed for 4-course guitar with at least Italian >> tablature, although possibly not all Italian: >> >> B-Bc MS LIt. XY no. 24135 [1570-1580 (tablature section)] >> (Italy?) [not in RISM; see TYLER p. 31] >> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature >> >> GB-Lam Ms. 645 [1625 and 1650] >> "Italian manuscript in tablature for 4-course chitarra (ca.1625) and >> single line tablature (?for violin)" (Italy) [not in RISM; see TYLER p. >> 83] >> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature >> >> Thomassini 1645 >> Thomassini, Filippo, publisher. Conserto vago di balletti, volte, >> corrente, et gagliarde, con la loro canzone alla franzese nuovamente posti >> in luce per sonare con liuto, tiorba, et *chitarrino a quatro corde alla >> napolitana* insieme, o soli ad arbitrio, e diletto de' virtuosi, et nobili >> professori, o studiosi dei questo instromento (Rome, [Italy]: Filippo >> Thomassini) >> 8-course lute in Italian tablature >> 11-course theorbo in Italian tablature >> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature >> >> I-Fn Ms. Magliabechiano, classe XIX, codice 28 [1667-1700] >> [RISM B/VII p. 107] >> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature >> >> I-Fn Ms. Magliabechiano, classe XIX, codice 29 [1667-1700] >> [RISM B/VII p. 108] >> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature >> *** >> >> These last two depend on Boetticher for the instrumentation--and I fully >> realize how dangerous that is! I assume he merely counted the number of >> courses required in the tablature, but somehow he was unable to do even >> that in other circumstances. And perhaps the others are not the "real" 4c >> guitar? >> >> Gary >> >> On 1/21/2013 8:54 AM, Monica Hall wrote: >>> Well - obviously the 4-course guitar was played in Spain although the >>> extent to which it was played in the contrapuntal manner suggested by >>> the few surviving pieces in Mudarra and Fuenllana is unknown. >>> >>> The point which Meucci makes about Barberiis is that it is a bit odd >>> that a printed collection of lute music should include just four pieces >>> for an instrument of a different type. There are references to the >>> "chitarra" which clearly imply (if that's not a contradiction) that it >>> was a small lute. >>> >>> The safest thing to say is that there is no surviving Italian repertoire >>> for the 4-course guitar. >>> >>> Monica >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson" >>> <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> >>> To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >>> Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 11:28 AM >>> Subject: [LUTE] 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Dear Monica, >>>> >>>> You write 'There('s) no hard evidence that the 4-course guitar was >>>> played in Italy' and, of course, you're quite right. >>>> >>>> But it was played in Spain, then a major influence in all Hapsburg >>>> lands and in some Italian states as well as Naples. So I don't see it >>>> being played in the leading maritime centre of Venice as particularly >>>> far-fetched. And I'm referring to the figure of eight shaped >>>> instrument >>>> - I think we're in danger of going a bit too far down the invisible >>>> path of supposing a mandora shaped guitar was the default. >>>> >>>> regards >>>> >>>> Martyn >>>> >>>> --- On Mon, 21/1/13, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>> From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto >>>> To: "Sean Smith" <lutesm...@mac.com> >>>> Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>> Date: Monday, 21 January, 2013, 10:38 >>>> >>>> I am afraid the pieces in Barberiis are probably not for the 4-course >>>> guitar >>>> but - as Stuart has kindly pointed out with the appropriate >>>> reference - >>>> for >>>> a small 4-course lute or mandora. >>>> Renato Meucci, Da 'chitarra italiana' a 'chitarrone': una nuova >>>> interpretazione; in Enrico Radesca da Foggia e il suo tempo Atti del >>>> Convegno di studi, Foggia 7-8 Aprile 2000, pp. 30 - 57. >>>> There is a case to be made that this music by Bareriis isn't for >>>> figure-of-eight 'normal'-if-tiny 'Spanish guitar but for a small >>>> gittern/mandore-type instrument. >>>> There no hard evidence that the 4-course guitar was played in Italy. >>>> Monica >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Sean Smith" <[1]lutesm...@mac.com> >>>> To: "lute" <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 10:51 PM >>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto >>>> > >>>> > Thanks for the reminder, Arthur. I knew about these but had >>>> forgotten >>>> them >>>> > (too). It is more support that the little guitar was being played >>>> and >>>> even >>>> > written for. >>>> > >>>> > Sean >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Jan 20, 2013, at 2:32 PM, Arthur Ness wrote: >>>> > >>>> > The link is at the very bttom. >>>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arthur Ness" >>>> <[3]arthurjn...@verizon.net> >>>> > To: "Monica Hall" <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "Sean Smith" >>>> > <[5]lutesm...@mac.com> >>>> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>> > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 5:21 PM >>>> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >> Monica surely has simply forgotten about these Italian guitar >>>> pieces. >>>> >> Just four pieces in a century is virtually the same as saying >>>> there >>>> are >>>> >> no pieces.<g>: >>>> >> See [1][7]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 Sigs, Gg24v-Hh1v (last >>>> two >>>> >> pages)<<<snip>>> >>>> >> References >>>> >> 1. [8]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 >>>> >> 2. mailto:[9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk >>>> >> 3. mailto:[10]lutesm...@mac.com >>>> >> 4. mailto:[11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> >> 5. mailto:[12]lutesm...@mac.com >>>> >> 6. mailto:[13]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> >> 7. mailto:[14]lutesm...@mac.com >>>> >> 8. mailto:[15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> >> 9. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > To get on or off this list see list information at >>>> > [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> References >>>> >>>> 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com >>>> 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> 3. >>>> http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjn...@verizon.net >>>> 4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk >>>> 5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com >>>> 6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> 7. http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 >>>> 8. http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 >>>> 9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk >>>> 10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com >>>> 11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> 12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com >>>> 13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> 14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com >>>> 15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> 17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Dr. Gary R. Boye >> Professor and Music Librarian >> Appalachian State University > >