I'll second that sentiment. There is a small number of folks on this list who feel called upon to put down a more wealthy and successful cousin.
On 2/27/14 8:49 AM, "Monica Hall" <[email protected]> wrote: > There is no reason why Campion should have been embarrassed at being a > guitar player as well as a theorbo player. Foscarini, Bartolotti, > Grenerin, De Visee and Medard were all guitarists and theorboists and > indeed most professional players may have played both instruments as > and when required in a manner appropriated to the occasion. > > > > Please don't knock the guitar!!! > > > > Monica > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: [1]Shaun Ng > > To: [2]Monica Hall > > Cc: [3]R. Mattes ; [4]Lutelist > > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 8:28 AM > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise > > Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils to take a few > lessons on the guitar before starting with the lute. > > What I have found interesting is how Campion--who doesn't seem to be > embarrassed to call himself both a theorbo and guitar master--seems to > suggest that the way to play (or more precisely 'touch') the theorbo is > really similar to the guitar. I wonder what this says about French > eighteenth century performance style. > > Campion (my translations): > > There is an art to touching [the notes of] the chords. The thumb, > after having touched the essential note, must then do > a batterie with the other fingers, restruming [the strings] and > alternately multiplying the chord, unless the strings are separated > [....] This is why I always give a dozen guitar lessons to those who > intend to accompany on the theorbo. > The harpegement of chords on theorbo makes up superbly > when abbreviating the bass [in quick] movements. It is for this > reason that I usually give, as I said, a dozen lessons on the > guitar to those who intend to accompany on the theorbo. Its facility > brings about in a short time [an understanding of] the touch [of the > instrument]. > > Shaun Ng > > On 27 Feb 2014, at 9:46 am, Monica Hall <[5][email protected]> > wrote: > > I have read all the messages in order but there are rather a lot of > them and > no reason why I should reply to all of them in detail. To repeat > again what you > actually said... > "First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild > source > for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for > there > inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and > their > grandmother sneered at them)." > There were a lot of amateur guitarists but many of them were > perfectly > capable of playing sophisticated music. In the passage which > Jean-Marie has > quoted Gramont says > The King's taste for Corbetta's compositions had made this > instrument so > fashionable that everyone played it, well or ill. > The Duke > of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well as > Francisco himself. > Clearly many of these people could play sophisticated music as well > as a professional player.. > The memoires are a witty and entertaining account of life at the > Restoration Court but you don't have to take everything in them at > face value. > Some people may have sneered at the guitar but this is very often > just a matter of cultural snobbism which was alive and well in > the 17th century as it is today. > There is no reason why a guitar accompaniment should not be a vaild > source > of information about realizing a continuo. Many guitarists were > quite able to do this within the limitations which the instrument > imposes and they may have had a better grasp of the way chords can > be used than some lutenists. Campion actually says that he > reccommends his pupils to take a few lessons on the guitar before > starting with the lute. > That will have to do for tonight. > Monica > ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Mattes" > <[6][email protected]> > To: "Monica Hall" <[7][email protected]> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[8][email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 9:18 PM > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise > > On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 20:10:03 -0000, Monica Hall wrote > Monica - are you still reading up? It's really hard to answer > without > knowing which of my posts you have read so far. > >> First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild >> source >> for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for >> there >> inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and >> their >> grandmother sneered at them). > This is an outrageous remark. Certainly there were some people in > the 17th century who disliked the guitar and had their own agenda to > pursue. There are apparently some in the 21st century too. > > Please, no conspiracy theories. Even the very text Jean-Marie posted > and > you had so much fun translating hints at the guitar's problems (as > do > many other 17th century sources). > > But there is a substantial repertoire of fine music for the guitar - > by Bartolotti in particular, as well as Corbetta, De Visee and many > others. > > As I have said before - I'm not critisising baroque guitar music. > There's indeed some very fine ideomatic music written for that > instrument. > > Several of the guitar books include literate example on how to > accompany a bass line. These do sometimes indicate that compromise > was > necessary because the instrument has a limited compass. > > Yes, and the more refined these treaties get, the more the guitar > gets > treated like a "mini-lute". > > There are for > examples in Granatas 1659 book where although the bass line > indicates > a 4-3 suspension over a standard perfect cadence with the bass line > falling a 5th he has rearranged the parts so that the 4-3 suspension > is in the lowest sounding part. There is no earthly reason why this > should not be acceptable. > > Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. You can't have a 4-3 > suspension > in the lowest voice. You can have a forth between the lowest two > voices, > but than the higher on would need to resolve downwards to a third. > What > you describe sounds like a 4-3 voice played an octave to low (or > rather, > the bass voice being displaced an octave too high), but that would > result in a 5th resolving to a 6th [1] ... I'm absolutely convinced > that > this would make any 17th century musician cringe. This is something > that > just does never happen outside the guitar world. It's not as if we > had > no information about how musicians (including amateurs) learned and > perceived music. > > And no reason why lutenists should not have done the same if this > was > inconvenient. > > For me the issue pretty much is: should I (as a lute player) take > as > a model an instrument which is severly limited (as a _basso_ > continuo > instrument) as already noticed by contemporary writers or should I > just > follow contemporary BC instructions (literally hundreds of them!). > When > switching from the organ or harpsichord to a lute or theorbo, why > should > I all of a sudden ignore what I've learned about proper voice > leading? > With all the stylistic differences between the different continuo > styles > the common agreement seems to be that continuo should follow the > "rules" > of music (BC quasi beeing a "contapunto al mente") [2] > There really seems to be a great divide between the so-called guitar > world and the rest of the baroque crowd. To the later it seems > pretty > clear that BC was first and foremost a shorthand notation for > colla-parte playing. It's rather unfortunate that modern time picked > "basso continuo" and not Fundamentbass or "sopra la parte" or > "partimento" (the last literally meaning "little score" or > "short-hand > score"). > Cheers, Ralf Mattes > [1] unless someone else provides a lower bass voice. > [2] im very reluctant to use the word "rules" here. This sounds like > something imposed from the outside. Maybe "grammar" would be the > more > fitting term. > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > Visible links > 1. mailto:[email protected] > 2. mailto:[email protected] > 3. mailto:[email protected] > 4. mailto:[email protected] > 5. mailto:[email protected] > 6. mailto:[email protected] > 7. mailto:[email protected] > 8. mailto:[email protected] > 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > Hidden links: > 11. http://www.linkedin.com/in/shaunkfng >
