[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise

[Monica Hall]

Not sure what point you are trying to make here - but they did write in this 
rather convoluted style and were not always terribly literate.
But it is not helpful to try and reproduce this in a different language - it 
makes no more sense like that than a Google translation and simply adds to 
the confusion.
It seems to me perfectly clear what he is saying - I have read his preface 
and translated it previously without being aware that there was really any 
problem with it.

Moreover - my sister who was bi-lingual and often helped me with French 
translations was even freer in the way she translated things.

As ever
Monica


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr>
To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "'Lute List'" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 5:58 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise


Exactly Monica, but I tried to keep the same awkwardness in English as the 
French original conveys and did not want to brush it up s mauch ;-) !

All the best but obviously YOU understand FRench ;-),

Jean-Marie


--------------

Well I don't know about French grammar but I would translate this passage 
as

I beg those who know how to compose and who are not familiar with the
guitar, not to be shocked if they find that I sometimes break  the rules;
the instrument requires it and above all it is necessary to satisfy  the
ear.

Monica

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr>
To: "Shaun Ng" <shaunk...@gmail.com>; "Monica Hall" 
<mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "'Lute List'" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise


"Et je prie ceux qui sçaurons bien la composition et qui ne 
connoistreront
pas la Guittare, de n'estre point scandalizez, s'ils trouvent que je
m'escarte quelquefois des regles, c'est l'Instrument qui le veut, et Il
faut satisfaire l'Oreille preferablement à tout."
Robert de Visée, Advis du Livre de Guittarre dédié au Roy (1682)
[ I pray those who know how to compose and would not know the guitar, 
not
to be shocked if they find that I sometimes depart from the rules, the
instrument commands it and the ear must be satisfied preferably to all ]

Just one quote out dozens in the same vein, from guitar players (not
modern ones) to justify what is one of the specificities of the so 
called
"baroque" guitar...Best,

Jean-Marie

PS : Robert de Visée was obviously one of the best on the guitar, 
theorbo
and lute of his time, but his French grammar was not really spotless...
;-)

------------

Monica,

I am not knocking the guitar. Campion’s 'lack of embarrassment' shows 
that
it was perfectly fine to be known as both theorbo and guitar player.
Furthermore, his treatise, which discusses accompaniment on the theorbo,
guitar and lute, does not suggest any disdain towards the guitar.

My feeling is that if we are to truly understand continuo from 
historical
writings, it is important to consider writings for both instruments; 
after
all, there is so much evidence that historical musicians (at least the
professionals) were multi instrumentalists. Did this also mean they had
multiple techniques of ’touching' for different instruments?

Shaun


On 28 Feb 2014, at 12:49 am, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

There is no reason why Campion should have been embarrassed at being a
guitar player as well as a theorbo player.   Foscarini, Bartolotti,
Grenerin, De Visee and Medard were all guitarists and theorboists and
indeed most professional players may have played both instruments as 
and
when required in a manner appropriated to the occasion.

Please don't knock the guitar!!!

Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: Shaun Ng
To: Monica Hall
Cc: R. Mattes ; Lutelist
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 8:28 AM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise

Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils to take a few
lessons on the guitar before starting with the lute.


What I have found interesting is how Campion—who doesn’t seem to be
embarrassed to call himself both a theorbo and guitar master—seems to
suggest that the way to play (or more precisely ’touch') the theorbo 
is
really similar to the guitar. I wonder what this says about French
eighteenth century performance style.

Campion (my translations):

There is an art to touching [the notes of] the chords. The thumb, 
after
having touched the essential note, must then do a batterie with the
other fingers, restruming [the strings] and alternately multiplying 
the
chord, unless the strings are separated [….] This is why I always give 
a
dozen guitar lessons to those who intend to accompany on the theorbo.

The harpègement of chords on theorbo makes up superbly when 
abbreviating
the bass [in quick] movements. It is for this reason that I usually
give, as I said, a dozen lessons on the guitar to those who intend to
accompany on the theorbo. Its facility brings about in a short time 
[an
understanding of] the touch [of the instrument].

Shaun Ng

On 27 Feb 2014, at 9:46 am, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

I have read all the messages in order but there are rather a lot of
them and
no reason why I should reply to all of them in detail.  To repeat 
again
what you
actually said...

"First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild
source
for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for
there
inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and
their
grandmother sneered at them)."

There were a lot of amateur guitarists  but many of them were 
perfectly
capable of playing sophisticated music.  In the passage which
Jean-Marie has
quoted Gramont says

The King's taste for Corbetta's compositions had made this instrument
so
fashionable that everyone played it, well or ill.
The Duke
of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well as
Francisco himself.

Clearly many of these people could play sophisticated music as well 
as
a professional player..

The memoires are a witty and entertaining account of life at the
Restoration Court but you don't have to take everything in them at 
face
value.

Some people may have sneered at the guitar but this is very often 
just
a matter of cultural snobbism which was alive and well in
the 17th century as it is today.

There is no reason why a guitar accompaniment should not be a vaild
source
of information about realizing a continuo. Many guitarists were quite
able to do this within the limitations which the instrument imposes 
and
they may have had a better grasp of the way chords can be used than
some lutenists. Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils 
to
take a few lessons on the guitar before starting with the lute.

That will have to do for tonight.

Monica


----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Mattes" <r...@mh-freiburg.de>
To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 9:18 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise


On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 20:10:03 -0000, Monica Hall wrote

Monica - are you still reading up? It's really hard to answer 
without
knowing which of my posts you have read so far.

> First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild
> source
> for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known 
> for
> there
> inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone 
> and
> their
> grandmother sneered at them).

This is an outrageous remark.   Certainly there were some people in
the 17th century who disliked the guitar and had their own agenda 
to
pursue.  There are apparently some in the 21st century too.

Please, no conspiracy theories. Even the very text Jean-Marie posted
and
you had so much fun translating hints at the guitar's problems (as 
do
many other 17th century sources).

But there is a substantial repertoire of fine music for the 
guitar -
by Bartolotti in particular, as well as Corbetta, De Visee and many
others.

As I have said before - I'm not critisising baroque guitar music.
There's indeed some very fine ideomatic music written for that
instrument.

Several of the guitar books include literate example on how to
accompany a bass line. These do sometimes indicate that compromise
was
necessary because the instrument has a limited compass.

Yes, and the more refined these treaties get, the more the guitar 
gets
treated like a "mini-lute".

There are for
examples in Granatas 1659 book where although the bass line 
indicates
a 4-3 suspension over a standard perfect cadence with the bass line
falling a 5th he has rearranged the parts so that the 4-3 
suspension
is in the lowest sounding part. There is no earthly reason why this
should not be acceptable.

Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. You can't have a 4-3
suspension
in the lowest voice. You can have a forth between the lowest two
voices,
but than the higher on would need to resolve downwards to a third.
What
you describe sounds like a 4-3 voice played an octave to low (or
rather,
the bass voice being displaced an octave too high), but that would
result in a 5th resolving to a 6th [1] ... I'm absolutely convinced
that
this would make any 17th century musician cringe. This is something
that
just does never happen outside the guitar world. It's not as if we 
had
no information about how musicians (including amateurs) learned and
perceived music.


And no reason why lutenists should not have done the same if this 
was
inconvenient.

For me the issue pretty much is:  should I (as a lute player) take 
as
a model an instrument which is severly limited (as a _basso_ 
continuo
instrument) as already noticed by contemporary writers or should I
just
follow contemporary BC instructions (literally hundreds of them!).
When
switching from the organ or harpsichord to a lute or theorbo, why
should
I all of a sudden ignore what I've learned about proper voice 
leading?
With all the stylistic differences between the different continuo
styles
the common agreement seems to be that continuo should follow the
"rules"
of music (BC quasi beeing a "contapunto al mente") [2]

There really seems to be a great divide between the so-called guitar
world and the rest of the baroque crowd. To the later it seems 
pretty
clear that BC was first and foremost a shorthand notation for
colla-parte playing. It's rather unfortunate that modern time picked
"basso continuo" and not Fundamentbass or "sopra la parte" or
"partimento" (the last literally meaning "little score" or 
"short-hand
score").

Cheers, Ralf Mattes


[1] unless someone else provides a lower bass voice.
[2] im very reluctant to use the word "rules" here. This sounds like
something imposed from the outside. Maybe "grammar" would be the 
more
fitting term.




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