Thanks for the interesting comments on Spain vs. Italy A few years ago there was some discussion that the vihuela sources weren't so clear about the strict no octave policy. What is the current thinking on this? -- Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Antonio Corona <[email protected]> wrote: Dear friends, Regarding the lute in Spain, Douglas Alton Smith, as Dan points out, supports a myth, albeit a long established one. And I must agree with Monica in that it is indeed a rather silly one. For those who can read Spanish, my book El LaA-od en la EspaA+-a Cristiana (The Lute in Christian Spain) is about to appear, published by the Spanish Sociedad de la Vihuela, el LaA-od y la Guitarra. I hope It my prove helpful in dispelling the absurd notions about the alleged mistrust of things Moorish, besides paying homage to Diana Poulton and Pepe Rey's contributions to the matter. There is plenty more information and documents about the lute in Spain than those advanced by Smith, and they attest to a widespread use of the instrument there. As a matter of fact,I had already delved into the matter in my dissertation, and arrived at the conclusion -which I now can support even better- that the truly aristocratic instrument in Renaissance Spain was not the vihuela (as it is generally held), but the lute. With best wishes, Antonio __________________________________________________________________ From: Dan Winheld <[email protected]> To: Monica Hall <[email protected]>; Mark Seifert <[email protected]> Cc: Lutelist <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, 6 May 2015, 16:53 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Satan's Advocate could well quote from Douglas Alton Smith's support of the rather silly myth from his work, "A History of the Lute", p.221 Chapter VIII "The Vihuela in Renaissance Spain": "At least one musician, Rodrigo Castillo, who was denoted as a lutenist in Spanish court records of 1488, was called a vihuelist in 1500. Instrument makers who were commonly called 'laudero' in the 15th century were called 'violero' in the 16th." -And of course he's got footnotes giving documentation. For what it's worth- Can anyone corroborate, contradict? (Incidentally, I could have been legitimately labeled "Lutenist" in 1999 and "Vihuelist" in 2002). Dan On 5/6/2015 12:18 PM, Monica Hall wrote: > Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute > because it had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. > Monica > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Seifert" <[1][email protected]> > To: "Ron Andrico" <[2][email protected]>; "Christopher Wilke" > <[3][email protected]>; "Dan Winheld" <[4][email protected]>; "Rob > MacKillop" <[5][email protected]>; "Howard Posner" > <[6][email protected]>; "David Van Ooijen" <[7][email protected]> > Cc: "'Lutelist'" <[8][email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > >> Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating >> topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof >> Brittany >> Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally >> expelled or forced conversion on the "Moors" (1523 was an important >> date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed >> in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from >> their >> ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She >> didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like >> innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the >> lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly >> reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant >> woman, heaven forbid. >> In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his "Terror of >> History" course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting >> decades >> before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse >> effects of >> eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of >> all their witches wouldn't improve anything. >> I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum >> wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener >> Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a >> Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor >> dusting >> a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose >> binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date >> "1728" in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it >> out, >> opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in >> incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was >> studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered >> how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There >> were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect >> the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century >> caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than >> the >> crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's >> family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on >> line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I >> didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also >> feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had >> gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and >> Germany. >> Mark Seifert >> On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias RAP:sel >> <[9][email protected]> wrote: >> Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. >> Mathias >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: [1][10][email protected] >> [mailto:[2][11][email protected]] On Behalf Of >> > Chris Barker >> > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM >> > To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' >> > Cc: 'Lutelist' >> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy >> > >> > I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at >> that time I'd >> > call him a thug too! >> > >> > Chris >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: [3][12][email protected] >> [mailto:[4][13][email protected]] On Behalf Of >> > Monica Hall >> > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM >> > To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong >> > Cc: Lutelist >> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy >> > >> > Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the >> Taliban in >> > Afghanistan. >> > They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural >> heritage. >> > And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. >> > Monica >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Edward Chrysogonus Yong" <[5][14][email protected]> >> > To: "Mark Wheeler" <[6][15][email protected]> >> > Cc: "Monica Hall" <[7][16][email protected]>; "ml" >> <[8][17][email protected]>; >> > "Lutelist" <[9][18][email protected]> >> > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM >> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy >> > >> > >> > > >> > > England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for >> > > music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just >> saying... >> > > >> > > ======== >> > > >> > > II?III? I.I>>IuI-oIII?I 1/2I^1I-oII 1/2 II+-III'II?I 1/4IuI-I?I >> 1/2 >> IuI-o IuI-I|II 1/2I?I IuI 1/4IuI IuIII 1/4II,I.. >> > > HA| litterA| electronicA| ab iPhono missA| sunt. >> > > aeCURe>>aaeuae>>P:c, 1/4eae-oe-aaa 3/4iPhonea >> > > This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. >> > > >> > >> On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler <[10][19][email protected]> >> wrote: >> > >> >> > >> Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article >> > >> >> > >> [11][20][1]https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf >> > >> >> > >> What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate >> set >> > >> of criteria is true and is also appropriate to the "racism" of >> the >> > >> English Queen. >> > >> >> > >> It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that >> England >> > >> did not fall to 16th century Catholic Spain! >> > >> >> > >> All the best >> > >> Mark >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >>> On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote: >> > >>> >> > >>> Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an >> > >>> inappropriate set of criteria. >> > >>> Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world because >> most >> > >>> of us study history from an English/Northern Europe point of >> view. >> > >>> Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured >> people >> > >>> from England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains. >> > >>> >> > >>> Monica briefly >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ml" >> <[12][21][email protected]> >> > >>> To: "LUTELIST List" <[13][22][email protected]> >> > >>> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM >> > >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>>> Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative >> > >>>> thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than England >> or >> > >>>> France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion, >> morality >> > >>>> (for instance >> > >>>> sexuality.) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of >> nearly >> > >>>> everything. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits >> the >> > >>>> nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan >> was >> > >>>> seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the >> > >>>> witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is >> > >>>> focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), >> the >> > >>>> witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european >> > >>>> countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here the >> > >>>> protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead. Only >> two >> > >>>> countries, Delumeau continues, "escaped from this general fear: >> > >>>> Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more >> pagan >> > >>>> than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the >> > >>>> church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any >> case, it >> > >>>> seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a >> lesser degree than >> > other countries." >> > >>>> >> > >>>> But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il >> cosmo >> > >>>> di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro-history, >> > >>>> Italy suffered under the inquisition as well. >> > >>>> Galileo's case is of course very well known. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> It's all too easy to project from our present time to that >> past. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-) >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Manolo >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>>> El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith <[14][23][email protected]> >> escribiA^3: >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's >> > >>>>> book is the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a >> > >>>>> refined and complex idiom unlike anything else in his >> Ferrerese >> or >> > >>>>> Venetiana dance cycles. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> Sean >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote: >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> A word of caution here: >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> We are making judgements based primarily on the printed >> evidence >> > >>>>> (i.e., the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great deal >> of >> > >>>>> music (most of it!) that took place in Spain outside of these >> > >>>>> formal, published works. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an >> > >>>>> imprimatur from a conservative and literally Inquisitorial >> > >>>>> government was unlikely with a large collection of dance >> music; >> > >>>>> much easier to play it conservative and stick to sacred >> > >>>>> intabulations. The vihuela manuscripts hint at a wider >> repertoire, >> > >>>>> as does the existence of guitar music from a later period. Who >> > >>>>> knows what was happening on the streets, but the Inquisition >> > >>>>> wouldn't have had much to do if everyone in Spain was a >> straight-laced as >> > the vihuela tablatures make it seem . >> > >>>>> . . >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> Gary >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> Dr. Gary R. Boye >> > >>>>> Professor and Music Librarian >> > >>>>> Appalachian State University >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>>> On 5/4/2015 12:37 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: >> > >>>>>> In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural groups >> that >> > >>>>>> had any rhythm were invited to leave the premises at once. It >> was >> > >>>>>> said that when all the Jewish & Moorish doctors, scholars, >> > >>>>>> scientists, and artists & academics showed up on his >> doorstep, >> > >>>>>> the Sultan of Turkey asked "Has the King of Spain lost his >> mind?" >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Lacking some rhythm myself, I do enjoy the all the great >> vihuela >> > >>>>>> music a lot- but even I have to sometimes "move" over to >> Italy >> & >> > >>>>>> Germany for a little jumping around. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Dan >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> On 5/4/2015 3:36 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: >> > >>>>>>> Well, the first answer that springs to mind is because Spain >> had >> > >>>>>>> recently kicked out all the dance musicians, who had >> moved to >> Italy. >> > >>>>>>> They were left with a bunch of upwardly mobile courtiers >> > >>>>>>> (Milan), and serious-minded priests with so much time on >> their >> > >>>>>>> hands that they intabulated every piece of vocal polyphony >> they >> > >>>>>>> could put their hands on. >> > >>>>>>> Actually, there is quite a bit of dance music in Fuenllana's >> > >>>>>>> print, some but much less in the other six published books. >> > >>>>>>> Also, there was quite a bit of dance music evident in >> Naples, >> > >>>>>>> which was Spanish at the time. >> > >>>>>>> RA >> > >>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:29:52 +0200 >> > >>>>>>>> To: [15][24][email protected] >> > >>>>>>>> From: [16][25][email protected] >> > >>>>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Spain vs. Italy >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> Hi all, >> > >>>>>>>> In the early 1500s, why are dances so common in Italian >> lute >> > >>>>>>>> music >> > >>>>>>> and >> > >>>>>>>> so rare in the vihuela rep. ? >> > >>>>>>>> Thanks >> > >>>>>>>> -- >> > >>>>>>>> Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please excuse my >> brevity. >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >> > >>>>>>>> [17][26][2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> -- >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> -- >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. mailto:[27][email protected] >> 2. mailto:[28][email protected] >> 3. mailto:[29][email protected] >> 4. mailto:[30][email protected] >> 5. mailto:[31][email protected] >> 6. mailto:[32][email protected] >> 7. mailto:[33][email protected] >> 8. mailto:[34][email protected] >> 9. mailto:[35][email protected] >> 10. mailto:[36][email protected] >> 11. [37][3]https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf >> 12. mailto:[38][email protected] >> 13. mailto:[39][email protected] >> 14. mailto:[40][email protected] >> 15. mailto:[41][email protected] >> 16. mailto:[42][email protected] >> 17. [43][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > > -- References 1. mailto:[email protected] 2. mailto:[email protected] 3. mailto:[email protected] 4. mailto:[email protected] 5. mailto:[email protected] 6. mailto:[email protected] 7. mailto:[email protected] 8. mailto:[email protected] 9. mailto:[email protected] 10. mailto:[email protected] 11. mailto:[email protected] 12. mailto:[email protected] 13. mailto:[email protected] 14. mailto:[email protected] 15. mailto:[email protected] 16. mailto:[email protected] 17. mailto:[email protected] 18. mailto:[email protected] 19. mailto:[email protected] 20.[5] https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf 21. mailto:[email protected] 22. mailto:[email protected] 23. mailto:[email protected] 24. mailto:[email protected] 25. mailto:[email protected] 26.[6] http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 27. mailto:[email protected] 28. mailto:[email protected] 29. mailto:[email protected] 30. mailto:[email protected] 31. mailto:[email protected] 32. mailto:[email protected] 33. mailto:[email protected] 34. mailto:[email protected] 35. mailto:[email protected] 36. mailto:[email protected] 37.[7] https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf 38. mailto:[email protected] 39. mailto:[email protected] 40. mailto:[email protected] 41. mailto:[email protected] 42. mailto:[email protected] 43.[8] http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
