> On 12 Oct 2016, at 01:00, Ron Andrico <praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Yes, where will it end?  I'll end my commentary by clearing up a few points.  
> I don't believe I even mentioned the term historically-informed performance 
> in my discussion.  HIP is not necessarily a hard and fast objective measure 
> because whenever the term is mentioned, you must ask the question, 
> "...according to whom?"  
> 

Here is a quotation from your original post which triggered this discussion:

Hmm...Historically-informed must have taken on a different meaning
  while I wasn't paying attention.  I should think Luca Pianca and his
  Italian compatriots might have a bit more of a secure connection with
  Vivaldi's music than the American's you name.  O'Dette recorded this
  music with a silly little chirpy mandolino playing with a rather stiff
  sounding band.  McFarlane's interpretation is vibrant and lovely but
  what we hear in this video with Luca Pianca has everything to do with a
  microphone placement that allows the lute to be heard above the rest of
  the band, as is certainly the case in the other recordings mentioned.
  As far as I can tell, single stringing was sometimes used by the old
  ones but Luca Pianca's hand position is definitely
  historically-accurate for Vivaldi's era.  The under thumb approach
  ceased to exist with the advent of many additional basses, circa 1600,
  and those who use that hand position in baroque music today are
  not using an historically-informed approach.  So unless
  historically-informed now has something to do with microphone
  placement, I think the video example is compelling and musical.



> Speedy O'Dette's use of a mandolino is a serious stretch of imagination.  I 
> happen to know McFarlane has pickups installed in his lutes.  Diego C's 
> performance was very nice but he did use some unhistorical variation 
> techniques in his decorated repeats, plus added uncommonly long pauses at the 
> ends of some phrases, plus the unhistorical mega-band.  Luca's performance 
> incorporated transposition and a single-strung archlute but I can tell you 
> without hesitation that historical theorbos were NOT single-strung either. 

See Howard’s comment

> He also used a floating hand position with thumb out.  So does Nigel North.  
> He also used nails.  So did Piccinini, and so does Stephen Stubbs. 
> 

I can’t see anything wrong with a floating hand position. Finger marks on 
original old lutes show that it was used quite often. Nigel doesn’t use 
nails, and this is why his tone is so beautiful.


> I am sorry to say that the guitar-lute controversy lives on whether people 
> would like to admit it or no.


There is no guitar-lute controversy. There is only a style problem which some 
consciously ignore.


>   I don't happen to carry that baggage, but I do take care to inform myself. 

So do I and quite a lot of us

> Taste is indeed subjective but if the idea of HIP is popped out of its ugly 
> socket, it must be applied evenly to all involved in comparison.
> 

No problem, the only thing is that it’s not a very best idea to construct a 
theory on a precedent. And I say again, I don’t want to judge someone’s 
performance, my only concern is that people use HIP term with some care.

JL

> 
> 
> 
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of 
> Jarosław Lipski <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2016 7:28 PM
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto
>  
> My, my…were will it all end? ;)
> The discussion diverged from a simple question to a very complicated topic, 
> and I won’t go into details as this is not the best place for this kind of 
> discussion, and so many books were written about it, however I just would 
> like to point out some problems in this train of thought. Before doing this I 
> have to stress again that we are not talking about assessing someone’s 
> performance. There aren’t in fact 2 camps - inherently musical 
> interpretation versus historically accurate one. One may, or may not like 
> Luca’s performance. This is personal and irrelevant. This is much broader. 
> Firstly there is nothing amusing in talking about authenticity providing that 
> it is understood properly. Authentic does not mean identical to what old ones 
> did. On the other hand I can sense here a lute player-syndrome. When a 
> cellist begins training as a gamba player in a music school he/she is taught 
> how to bow and phrase in accordance with a present knowledge of a given style 
> (be it Rena!
 is!
>  sance or Baroque). Then, providing that education is of high quality a style 
> becomes somehow ones second nature (hopefully). Have you ever heard a well 
> educated gamba player that would use a modern bow, modern or romantic 
> phraising claiming he/she is HIP? I haven’t. And this is due to the fact 
> that lute history is a little bit more complicated than gamba’s, and not 
> everything is absolutely clear untill the present day, and musicologists can 
> not agree on various important details. Some use this  as an excuse for 
> unrestricted interpretations. And so far I wouldn’t object. The only 
> problem I have is to accept the situation when someone plays  or interprets 
> the way which is not in line with widespread knowledge and claims being HIP. 
> “I” should stand for INFORMED not IGNORED. So if one doesn’t insist on 
> using this magic label I feel happy and can listen solely to musical 
> performance even if it’s a Vivaldi's amplified ukulele concerto accompanied 
> by a symphonic or!
 ch!
>  estra dressed in space outfits ;) If performance is convincing!
>  …fantastic! But shouldn’t we use HIP label a little bit more carefully? 
> It means “in accordance with a present knowledge”, nothing more, nothing 
> less. You do not have to live without all modern conveniences in order to be 
> HIP. You cannot enter the same river twice as they say, so don’t even try, 
> but you can play in accordance to the available knowledge musically, and give 
> phenomenal performances,  which I wish us all :)
> JL
> 
> 
> 
> > On 11 Oct 2016, at 14:04, Ron Andrico <praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > As a musician who did NOT come to the lute via classical guitar, I am 
> > alternately amused and discouraged that the argument of guitar technique 
> > versus an approved "authentic" lute technique is still an issue.  This 
> > argument is an unfortunate artifact of the late 20th lute fad, and those 
> > who are still banging away on this issue are overlooking information in the 
> > historical sources.
> > 
> > For the record, I do not play single-strung lutes, and I understand from 
> > reading historical source material that single-strung theorbos were just as 
> > rare as single-strung archlutes.  But they are an accepted modern 
> > compromise.  Likewise, I do not use nails, but Alessandro Piccinini and 
> > other historical figures did. 
> > 
> > The truth is that there were and are many ways to approach historical 
> > music.  Until we learn to live without all modern conveniences - electronic 
> > tuners, photocopied or digital scores, electric lights, indoor plumbing - 
> > the idea that we can today decide on narrow parameters that describe 
> > historical performance is a rather ludicrous exercise in fantasy.  
> > 
> > I have increasingly moved toward an attempt to perform only in 
> > appropriate-sized spaces and I tend to put an enormous amount of effort in 
> > producing historically integrated programs using the proper instruments.  
> > Taste is a subjective and individual phenomenon but some of us have 
> > traversed beyond the old guitar versus lute argument and have come to 
> > listen with an open mind and judge a performance based upon its musicality.
> > 
> > RA
> > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of 
> > Jarosław Lipski <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2016 8:47 AM
> > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto
> >  
> > Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca’s 
> > performance was very successful. On the other hand one may ask questions 
> > like: why someone plays single strung archlute if there is little evidence 
> > for this type of instrument, why someone uses fingernails if the evidence 
> > speaks against using them, and why someone uses amplification (Noble prize 
> > for someone who’ll find any evidence for this :)) And if all of this is 
> > used simultaneously, then one may assume it is not coincidental. Why? 
> > Because it is much more guitar-like, and most of lute players started their 
> > musical education as guitarists. Another problem is the fear of not being 
> > heard by an audience especially when playing in a group . 
> > Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out that there 
> > are 2 ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone who has no 
> > experience in early music may feel a little bit confused.
> > Best
> > JL
> > 
> > 
> > > On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
> > >> Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another 
> > >> version of RV93 played by Luca 
> > >> herehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 
> > >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 
> > >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog>> < 
> > >> <applewebdata://EA85FDB0-28D7-4B4B-8418-4B245FDE06F8>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog
> > >>  <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 
> > >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog>>>
>  <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog>        
> Vivaldi RV93 Luca Pianca <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog>
> www.youtube.com
> Vivaldi RV93 played by Il Giardino Armonico with a Swiss born solo lutenist 
> Luca Pianca.
> 
> >  <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog>>        
> > Vivaldi RV93 Luca Pianca <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog>>
> > www.youtube.com <http://www.youtube.com/>
> > Vivaldi RV93 played by Il Giardino Armonico with a Swiss born solo lutenist 
> > Luca Pianca.
> >  <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog>>        
> > Vivaldi RV93 Luca Pianca <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog>>
> > www.youtube.com <http://www.youtube.com/>
> > Vivaldi RV93 played by Il Giardino Armonico with a Swiss born solo lutenist 
> > Luca Pianca.
> > 
> > >> The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for this 
> > >> type of archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly noticed. 
> > >> Luca uses fingernails, so this is another factor that influences the 
> > >> overall sound (not only mics).
> > >> JL
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>> 
> > >>> on a good authority of RT.
> > >>> Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
> > >>> RT
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
> > >>>> Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
> > >>>> JL
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by 
> > >>>>> Luc Breton.
> > >>>>> RT
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
> > >>>>>> The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, 
> > >>>>>> but a liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano 
> > >>>>>> Contini, Eric Bellocq and many others use it, however I would be far 
> > >>>>>> from saying that this is a historical instrument - see 
> > >>>>>> herehttp://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
> > >>>>>> <http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
> > >>>>>> <http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html>> < 
> > >>>>>> <applewebdata://EA85FDB0-28D7-4B4B-8418-4B245FDE06F8>http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html
> > >>>>>>  <http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
> > >>>>>> <http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html>>> It’s 
> > >>>>>> easier to play and was specially created with guitarists in mind.
> >  <http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
> > <http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html>>      
> > LIUTO FORTE - The 21st Century Lute <http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
> > <http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html>>
> > liuto-forte.com
> > Liuto forte – a Lute for the 21th Century. In 1999 the “Prix de 
> > l’innovation pour les instruments de musique” was awarded in Paris for 
> > the creation of the ...
> >  <http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
> > <http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html>>      
> > LIUTO FORTE - The 21st Century Lute <http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
> > <http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html>>
> > liuto-forte.com
> > Liuto forte – a Lute for the 21th Century. In 1999 the “Prix de 
> > l’innovation pour les instruments de musique” was awarded in Paris for 
> > the creation of the ...
> > 
> > >>>>>> Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really 
> > >>>>>> Baroque. Having said that, his performance from musical point of 
> > >>>>>> view was successful, and I am glad to see people talking about music 
> > >>>>>> on this list :)
> > >>>>>> Best
> > >>>>>> 
> > >>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner <howardpos...@ca.rr.com> 
> > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>> On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi <tio...@gmail.com> 
> > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>> The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and 
> > >>>>>>>> not. in D.
> > >>>>>>>> It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the 
> > >>>>>>>> violins.
> > >>>>>>> Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino 
> > >>>>>>> Armonico plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch 
> > >>>>>>> is lowered on the Youtube video we’re talking 
> > >>>>>>> about.  This is commonly done to avoid detection by copyright bots.
> > >>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>> Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the 
> > >>>>>>> same concerto, sounding in D at A 415:
> > >>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM 
> > >>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM> 
> > >>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM 
> > >>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM>>
> >  <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM 
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM>>        
> > Il Giardino Armonico - Vivaldi - Concerto in D Major for ... 
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM 
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM>>
> > www.youtube.com <http://www.youtube.com/>
> > Il Giardino Armonico - Vivaldi - Concerto in D Major for lute RV 93 Allegro 
> > - Largo - Allegro
> > 
> > >>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>> Of course, it’s possible that the sound is 
> > >>>>>>> adjusted up on this one.
> > >>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
> > >>>>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 
> > >>>>>>> <http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html> 
> > >>>>>>> <http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 
> > >>>>>>> <http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>>
> > Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list 
> > <http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 
> > <http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>>
> > www.cs.dartmouth.edu <http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/>
> > Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list. getting on 
> > and off the list; How do I get on the lute mail list? How do I get off the 
> > lute mail list?
> > 
> > >>>>>> --
> > >>>> 
> > >> 
> > >> --
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> --


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