Well then, let's make this public then.

Yes, you are living in darkness for not wanting to hear the relation!

You basically accuse me of being a con artist. This is not ok.
I don't even want your money, I am *giving* you my discovery for pure joy of discovery.

Let's make this a challenge (this for everyone).

The Echo Fantasia is not really a difficult work for a normal Organist.
If you know any Indian Classical musician, and an organist, have the latter play, and the former listen to it and have him choose a Raga. I bet it will be Aswari (Fantasia ex A = Aswari!), and I say he will be able to perform his Raga. Add a tabla player for the right rhythm.

Eugene, there is no need to Braig about your "scientific education".
If experiments don't convince you, what then? The discussion? The conclusion?
Again, let this sink in: I did not edit the tracks! It works every time!
If the Raga performance is longer, you can even loop the Fantasy and you get new aspects of the Raga matching them. The sections always match, and there are distinct functions of the segments, and these are even imitated in the Keyboard works, down to the exact gestures.
Why are you not able to hear that?
Dudes, the "Stretta" that appears after 1600 is *Indian*.

But as it says in the Bible and countless other stories:
Those who don't want to see the truth are blind.
Or in this case, hear.

I cannot say if my peers are like the blind ones or not.

What I can say is that I will publish my findings one way or the other - for those who are not hearing it already, it probably must be.

Have a great one.
And thanks to all those who like my discovery. Be sure to follow my soundcloud for new pieces. I suspect Dowland is a key person, so I will try to find Ragas for the Fantasies. I will NOT post these here with the naysayers, and for fear of Arthur Ness getting a heart attack.

Add me on soundcloud:

Have a great day you all. I pray for the naysayers.

Am 08.02.2018 um 16:11 schrieb Braig, Eugene:
Tristan wrote to me directly without copying the list.  Out of respect to 
whatever his intent may be, I will not forward his personal reply.  I will, 
however, share my own replies to him:

"Yeah, I don't mind looking foolish.  Given the semi-improvisatorial nature of 
Indian classical music, any modern recording of raga to overlay any set renaissance 
composition must be coincidental.  Given humanity's aural expectation of resolving to a 
cadence or nyasa [the Indian version of cadence], I would assume a fair number of 
coincidences between the two would occur.  Assuming conclusive proof of causation 
(instead of simple coincidence) without supporting documentation strikes me as 
fallacious.  I am a scientist on the day job and my parlance is skepticism."

Thinking more on this, if a modern recording of semi-improvised raga does 
overlay a written renaissance fantasia by virtue of inspiration, that 
inspiration is more likely to have been in the opposite direction of that 

And, regarding why sections might roughly align between raga and renaissance fantasia and that the 
inability to "hear" constitutes my own dwelling in "darkness" (the tastiest 
criticisms are omitted here), this was followed by:

"Coincidence.  Music tends to be organized into 'sections' wherever it's occurred.  
The expectation of evidence beyond coincidence doesn't feel like darkness to me."

To the first note I had appended:

"I would have copied this [reply] to the list, but am not certain why you didn't, 
Tristan.  I suspect it may be to contain a joke, to see how far it can be carried among 
the uninitiated."

I will await the scholarly publication following peer review.

My best wishes are with you all.


-----Original Message-----
From: Braig, Eugene
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 9:19 AM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

Aye.  Thank you, gentlemen.


-----Original Message-----
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
G. C.
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 5:46 PM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

    I agree with you Arto. The first example is quite amazing in its
    compatibility. Due to a common scale, the forced duet somehow sounds
    compatible. I would say a musical quirk and a coincidence. How could
    Indian music be compatible with Western renaissance. No chance!
    And the other examples are even less impressive, even contradictive.
    Nice try Tristan! :)
    On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 11:32 PM, Arto Wikla <[1]wi...@cs.dartmouth.edu>

      Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations of Bull's
      harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga performances,
      and sincerely I could not find much in common between them, just two
      different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of course
      free to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his
      medleys, but while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-)
      all the best,
      On 07/02/18 07:53, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

       > Those who would even want to listen are fools.
      Of course, those who wouldn't.
      Am 07.02.2018 um 06:48 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:

      I can't believe almost no one is excited about this discovery.
      All those who *still* doubt me, listen to this epic Raga Yaman
      accompanied by John Bull's Fantasy XII.
      I did nothing but adjust the pitch and placement of the tracks.
      Those who would even want to listen are fools.
      Like the pope who wouldn't look through Galilei's telescope.
      Those who will listen will hear.
      To get on or off this list see list information at



    1. mailto:wi...@cs.dartmouth.edu
    2. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman
    3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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