hello Martin and all,
first, there is more than "some similarities" :)
It requires a little listening though, I can't expect you to follow
everything.
Then: I have been working on this for just two months now. You can't
expect me to peruse everything needed for a proper paper (for example
everything written on Ciacona so far...) while gathering the data...
After having talked with my former professor of musicology, I will first
try to focus on the Ciacona origin, which seems a) most easy to show and
will b) possible to cover in a handy format.
I will make my case clear not only through musical correlation, but also
through historically accepted facts, iconography, and hopefully some
documents or at least documented documents...
Otherwise the article would certainly and rightfully be rejected.
I do not choose the publication, it will depend on who would want to
print my article.
However it is very likely a German publication, though I will provide an
English abstract and maybe an English translation.
Am 02.04.2018 um 13:10 schrieb Martyn Hodgson:
Dear Tristan,
Thank you for this. As I understand it, your basic thesis is that,
because there
appears to be some similarities, various European early musical forms
must
have been directly copied at the time (and appropriated by Monteverdi
and
others) from existing music found on the subcontinent.
It will certainly be instructive to read your promised full and
properly developed
paper on this matter. In which refereed scholarly journal are you
seeking to have
it published? - and when will it appear?
Incidentally, I'm sure you will be aware of a basic rule of formal
logic employed
in any recognised objective analysis: - correlation does not imply
causation. A
mistaken belief that correlation signifies causation is, as you will
also be aware,
a questionable cause logical fallacy. No doubt you will, therefore,
rigorously
address this particularly relevant matter in your forthcoming paper.
MH
__________________________________________________________________
From: Tristan von Neumann <[email protected]>
To: lutelist Net <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, 31 March 2018, 8:56
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Easteregg: The Birth of Baroque Music from the
Spirit of India - no kidding.
So how do you explain that every change of rhythm matches the piece,
and
even the instrumentation seems derived from the tabla beats?
This is not the wheel, this is a detailed overlap.
And how do you explain the emergence of Baroque exactly at the same
time
India was explored?
Praetorius even depicts authentic Indian instruments (no, and they're
not American Indian - those are called "American" in Syntagma Musicum).
Just be a little more open to cultural exchanges, it's not even
implausible.
Stay tuned for my article.
Happy Easter!
Am 31.03.2018 um 09:34 schrieb Martyn Hodgson:
> Dear Tristan,
> I really do think you're making much too much of this coincidence:
just
> because a similar form appears in two different
cultures/civilisations
> does not of course necessarily, or indeed automatically, mean that
one
> was developed directly from the other.
> History is peppered with examples of inventions developed
> independently: shoes, writing, arithmetic, the wheel, etc,
> etc................
> MH
>
__________________________________________________________________
>
> From: Tristan von Neumann <[1][email protected]>
> To: lutelist Net <[2][email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, 31 March 2018, 1:18
> Subject: [LUTE] Easteregg: The Birth of Baroque Music from the
Spirit
> of India - no kidding.
> Dear Lutists,
> I know I have been bothering many of you with my premature
findings
> which were hard to consume and did not convince everone.
> I thank everyone who considered the possibility that I could be
onto
> something.
> Now forget everything I posted. This was only lab work compared to
> this.
> Here's the Real McCoy, which will totally surprise you.
> It's the Sonata Sopra Sancta Maria by Claudio Montverdi, from his
> Vespro
> della Beata Vergine.
> Here's my text to the track:
> ___________________
> I think I now know what happened - nothing less than the Birth of
> Baroque Music from India's spirit.
> Everything about the Sonata sopra Sancta Maria seems Indian now,
except
> the polyphony - that's European.
> Indian Music has hidden harmonies though, and it was Monteverdi's
> genius
> to augment the Raga in 3D, adapting both the rhythm of the tonal
(!)
> tabla drums and the "thorough bass" of Raga Alhaiya Bilawal -
indeed
> the
> new style of the 1600s is driven by the bass line. There are whole
> opera
> "scores" consisting only of bass line and chant, yet one was able
to
> extract the whole music for performance from that - even today
this
> wisdom has not been lost.
> It only makes sense that the Sonata is "sopra Sancta Maria ora pro
> nobis" - Indian Ragamala paintings depict Raga Bilawal as a woman
with
> a
> mirror, anxiously waiting for her lover - fitting the cahtolic
> eroticised Cult of the Virgin Mary.
> Note how all Indian ornaments are of the same type as
Monteverdi's.
> Also, listen to how the rhythm is actually employed and how it's
> adapted
> in certain instrumental passages.
> Finally, the recurring tune "Sancta Maria Ora Pro Nobis" is used
with
> different note lenghts and different emphasis, just like an Indian
> "Pakad", which is the recurring ritornello theme of a Raga varied
over
> different rhythm patterns.
> In this light, the "Birth of Baroque Music from the Spirit of
India" is
> probably not an overstatement.
> This warrants a book... I'll try to at least finish my article
soon,
> this and the Ciacona will now be the main focus, as it can be most
> easily shown how these are related to Ragas, even without
transcribing
> a
> 30 min complex performance by ear alone.
> Stay tuned!
> ____________________
> Here's the mix:
>
[1][3]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/claudio-monteverdi-son
ata
> -sopra-sancta-maria-raga-alhaiya-bilawal-kishori-amonkar
> ____________________
> Happy Easter and other Holidays!
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [2][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
[5]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/claudio-monteverdi-sonata
-sopra-sancta-maria-raga-alhaiya-bilawal-kishori-amonkar
> 2. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
--
References
1. mailto:[email protected]
2. mailto:[email protected]
3. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/claudio-monteverdi-sonata
4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
5.
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/claudio-monteverdi-sonata-sopra-sancta-maria-raga-alhaiya-bilawal-kishori-amonkar
6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
