Please, Ido, differ if You feel the evidence it is not hard enough.
This is why I post. If there is any weak point, I'd like to fix it.
I am happy about any disagreement.
So, I agree, if one piece by chance fits, it is not a strong argument.
Hip-Hop is designed to fit various musical samples into it's simple
structure though. That makes it a weak argument.
It isn't even clear if the tempo is adjusted to match.
I have shown various mixes that all didn't require any changes in tempo,
even the long ones. This is by itself very amazing.
I challenge everyone to make similar mixes with Arab, Japanese, Chinese
or Balinese music.
I don't know what Your ears are focused on, but it seems that by not
believing any connection beforehand, they focus on the differences in
sound rather than noticing that the Raga gives the same harmonic
structure as the ostinato on which the Ciacona is based, and it fits
even in the type of variations and rhythm changes.
Indian percussion is very complex, the basics are often only obvious at
the beginning of a rhythmic cycle. Listen again to how, as the piece
progresses, the tabla rhythms introduce many of the note values used in
the diminutions.
For what we know about Renaissance and Early Baroque diminution practice
and "bastarda" playing, the Indian flute is well within those bounds and
might even be the "more authentic" improvisation practice than today's
reconstruction of European music from the books.
If You like some examples, listen to David van Ooijen and Michiel
Niessen's Terzi album
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y4DWm24ah0
or look at the two "BM" counterpoints by Vincenzo Galilei
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ko_vL9qJnA
or have a look at the Ganassi instruction manual how to apply
diminutions to a cadence in complex patterns based on even 5,7 or 10-tuplets
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzGfM0FsS2E
It's all there. The difference between Indian and European music of the
time is merely superficial.
The "different musical traditions" are related historically, albeit long
time ago, but this would be not enough to explain why it fits.
(Linguists have well established for over 100 years now that the
Indo-Aryan Languages are part of the Indo-European group, which means
that Icelandic and Hindi are related, though the similarities are far
from striking at first glance.)
It is on the other hand very unlikely that people who were able to write
a Grammar of Sanskrit by 1650 would not have perceived the music of the
same people.
I hope I am doing great justice to both European and Indian music by
showing the influence of one on the other.
Have You listened to my reconstruction of a concert at the Persian
Court? It is a historical fact that Christian Herwich was a musician on
a diplomatic mission in Isfahan, and the Sonata "La Chilana" does make
sense in the mix. Chilana is a Punjabi name and there is no other
sensible explanation for the dedication of the sonata than being written
for an Indian musician at the Persian court.
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sets/reconstruction-of-a-concert-in
Additionally, the source "Partiturbuch Ludwig" contains one of the
biggest concentrations of Ostinato-based music, which make it likely a
collection of Raga harmonizations.
The famous Sonata in d by Bertali for example is entirely based on
Darbari Kanada, as I have shown with three versions: Karnatic,
Hindustani and Sikh hymn.
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/antonio-bertali-sonata-a-4-o-s-arun-bhajan-ek-manthra-darbari-kaanadaa-carnatic
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/antonio-bertali-sonata-in-d-a-4-raag-darbari-kanra-prof-surinder-singh-sikh-tradition
Am 29.06.2018 um 08:13 schrieb Ido Shdaimah:
I beg to differ.
Mixes aren't musicological evidence, as others said before.
Take this for example:
[1]https://youtu.be/kgusLCtIG78
It fits perfectly, but it doesn't mean I can deduce rap is based on
Thomas the Tank Engine's theme or vice versa. It only means that the
two pieces have some similar attributes that cause them to sound
alright when mixed together.
Even then, your mixes, to my ears at least, don't sound very close.
They are obviously from different musical traditions, and don't have
any remarkable similarities.
Indian music is a very interesting topic, and I don't think you do it,
nor early western music any justice with those mixes.
Finally, I don't think that this is an appropriate topic for this
mailing list.
Thank you for reading,
Ido Shdaimah
On Fri, Jun 29, 2018, 05:50 Tristan von Neumann
<[2][email protected]> wrote:
Another Kamod type Ciacona - Buxtehude really got it.
How is this even possible?
This is the closest to Indian Music I found (yet).
[3]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/dietrich-buxtehude-son
ata-iv-op-1-ciacona-raga-kamod-ronu-majumdar
To get on or off this list see list information at
[4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. https://youtu.be/kgusLCtIG78
2. mailto:[email protected]
3.
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/dietrich-buxtehude-sonata-iv-op-1-ciacona-raga-kamod-ronu-majumdar
4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
