Many months ago I decided to flag Tristan von Neumann's emails as
spam. He appeared impervious to reasoned thought and only
wished to
put across a cranky assertion based on very little actual hard
evidence
rather than his coincidental speculation. I even wondered
whether the
whole thing was so far-fetched as to be a spoof..............
So I've only now caught up with the latest developments through the
thoughtful considered responses to the Lute List of people like
you and
Jurgen Frenz. I too see no reason to change my final comment to
Neumann (pasted below) made in April last and the spam filter will
continue.
Martyn Hodgson
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---------
2 Apr at 12:10 PM
To T[1]ristan von Neumann [2]lutelist Net
Thank you for this. As I understand it your basic thesis is that,
because there
appears to be some similarities, various European early musical
forms
must
have been directly copied at the time (and appropriated by
Monteverdi
and
others) from existing music found on the subcontinent.
It will certainly be instructive to read your promised full and
properly developed
paper on this matter. In which refereed scholarly journal are you
seeking to have
it published? - and when will it appear?
Incidentally, I'm sure you will be aware of a basic rule of formal
logic employed
in any recognised objective analysis: - correlation does not imply
causation. A
mistaken belief that correlation signifies causation is, as you
will
also be aware,
a questionable cause logical fallacy. No doubt you will,
therefore,
rigorously
address this particularly relevant matter in your forthcoming
paper.
Martyn Hodgson
__________________________________________________________________
From: Ido Shdaimah <[email protected]>
To: lutelist Net <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, 10 August 2018, 12:46
Subject: [LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re:
Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
Dear Tristan,
The Harmonium isn't traditionally used Indian Classical music:
In Indian music, only the Swaras (notes) Pa and Sa are set on
exact
points. The other Sawaras vary within ranges called
Swarakshetras.
The
maximal and minimal points are called Shrutis, and there are
22 of
them. When using different Ragas, different Shrutis are used
for each
Swara. The Harmonium is equal-tempered, and as so, cannot operate
with
in that natural environment of Indian Classical music.
Also, historically, the Harmonium became popular in India
during the
mid-late 19 century, due to portability and ease of play.
I think one of the biggest problems with your theory is that
if Raags
and CI music theory was so well known in the west, then we would
probably have ample evidence of that use, like mentions in theory
treatises.
You also need to consider another, more practical issue: such
a deep
musical exchange you suggest can only happen if there is
EXTENSIVE
direct contact between the two cultures. You aren't suggesting
here
that one composer used IC theory in his composition, but ALL
of them.
This would mean every single composer would have had to have deep
knowledge of IC music, and that would require a much bigger
contact.
Even these days with the ease of communication and knowledge
acquisition, most classical composers are generally oblivious
about
IC
theory.
Finally, if you really want your hypothesis evaluated you have to
write
it down and clearly compare structures from Western pieces to
Raags,
using both Western and IC theory terminology (Shrutis, Swaras,
Raags,
Chalan, Tala, all that from the IC side). Right now what you are
doing
is creating a mesh up then expecting everybody to hear what
tou heard
without providing any vigorous explanation. Maybe it's telling
that
no
body else seems to hear what you hear.
P. S.
Are my messages coming out indented correctly?
On Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 05:40 Tristan von Neumann
<[1][3][email protected]> wrote:
Dear Jurgen,
do you consider this an illusion too?
[2][4]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-rag
a-kamod-eri-jaane-na-doongi-nirali-kartik
How do you explain this? Listen to the *tonal* percussion
and where
the
lute goes into cadence.
How do you explain that the harmonium basically acts like a
regal
organ
in this context?
You can have spices, cloth and slaves from India, but music,
*not
interested*??
In a world that is constantly in need of music because there
were
no
mobile phones or even recordings?...
This I only found because I believe that the influence is true.
If I were a skeptic like you, I would never have achieved
anything
-
because I would not have tried.
Am 09.08.2018 um 20:32 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
> Dear Jurgen,
>
> I am afraid you are ill advised in regards to the history
of the
> discovery and exploration of the Indian subcontinent.
> Already with the first voyage of Vasco to India, Indians have
been
> brought to Europe to have a look at the Portuguese trading
goods,
to
> return to India later and tell about what would be
available for
Indian
> kings and their populace.
> Numerous detailed expeditions accounted for the discovery of
people and
> culture of India already in the 16th century (Jesuit
Mission).
> The first German expedition to India by the houses of
Fugger etc.
> together with Italian Merchants of the famous families
took place
> already in 1505/06.
>
> There are already many elements of Indian architecture
used in
> Portuguese Manuelism architecture in the beginning of the
16th
century.
>
> What exactly is your argument against musical transfer?
>
>
