Many months ago I decided to flag Tristan von Neumann's emails as
spam. He appeared impervious to reasoned thought and only
put across a cranky assertion based on very little actual hard
rather than his coincidental speculation. I even wondered
whole thing was so far-fetched as to be a spoof..............
So I've only now caught up with the latest developments through the
thoughtful considered responses to the Lute List of people like
Jurgen Frenz. I too see no reason to change my final comment to
Neumann (pasted below) made in April last and the spam filter will
2 Apr at 12:10 PM
To Tristan von Neumann lutelist Net
Thank you for this. As I understand it your basic thesis is that,
appears to be some similarities, various European early musical
have been directly copied at the time (and appropriated by
others) from existing music found on the subcontinent.
It will certainly be instructive to read your promised full and
paper on this matter. In which refereed scholarly journal are you
seeking to have
it published? - and when will it appear?
Incidentally, I'm sure you will be aware of a basic rule of formal
in any recognised objective analysis: - correlation does not imply
mistaken belief that correlation signifies causation is, as you
also be aware,
a questionable cause logical fallacy. No doubt you will,
address this particularly relevant matter in your forthcoming
From: Ido Shdaimah <ishdai...@gmail.com>
To: lutelist Net <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Sent: Friday, 10 August 2018, 12:46
Subject: [LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re:
Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
The Harmonium isn't traditionally used Indian Classical music:
In Indian music, only the Swaras (notes) Pa and Sa are set on
points. The other Sawaras vary within ranges called
maximal and minimal points are called Shrutis, and there are
them. When using different Ragas, different Shrutis are used
Swara. The Harmonium is equal-tempered, and as so, cannot operate
in that natural environment of Indian Classical music.
Also, historically, the Harmonium became popular in India
mid-late 19 century, due to portability and ease of play.
I think one of the biggest problems with your theory is that
and CI music theory was so well known in the west, then we would
probably have ample evidence of that use, like mentions in theory
You also need to consider another, more practical issue: such
musical exchange you suggest can only happen if there is
direct contact between the two cultures. You aren't suggesting
that one composer used IC theory in his composition, but ALL
This would mean every single composer would have had to have deep
knowledge of IC music, and that would require a much bigger
Even these days with the ease of communication and knowledge
acquisition, most classical composers are generally oblivious
Finally, if you really want your hypothesis evaluated you have to
it down and clearly compare structures from Western pieces to
using both Western and IC theory terminology (Shrutis, Swaras,
Chalan, Tala, all that from the IC side). Right now what you are
is creating a mesh up then expecting everybody to hear what
without providing any vigorous explanation. Maybe it's telling
body else seems to hear what you hear.
Are my messages coming out indented correctly?
On Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 05:40 Tristan von Neumann
do you consider this an illusion too?
How do you explain this? Listen to the *tonal* percussion
lute goes into cadence.
How do you explain that the harmonium basically acts like a
in this context?
You can have spices, cloth and slaves from India, but music,
In a world that is constantly in need of music because there
mobile phones or even recordings?...
This I only found because I believe that the influence is true.
If I were a skeptic like you, I would never have achieved
because I would not have tried.
Am 09.08.2018 um 20:32 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
> Dear Jurgen,
> I am afraid you are ill advised in regards to the history
> discovery and exploration of the Indian subcontinent.
> Already with the first voyage of Vasco to India, Indians have
> brought to Europe to have a look at the Portuguese trading
> return to India later and tell about what would be
> kings and their populace.
> Numerous detailed expeditions accounted for the discovery of
> culture of India already in the 16th century (Jesuit
> The first German expedition to India by the houses of
> together with Italian Merchants of the famous families
> already in 1505/06.
> There are already many elements of Indian architecture
> Portuguese Manuelism architecture in the beginning of the
> What exactly is your argument against musical transfer?