Dear friends,
do not neglect the fact that Chris Wilke and I are producing our 2nd CD
of Ukrainian Baroque-Lute Ragas -

and the recording sessions have occurred last weekend in New York City!
Your rupees can support the editing:


Am 10.08.2018 um 15:24 schrieb Martyn Hodgson:
    Many months ago I decided to flag Tristan von Neumann's emails as
    spam.  He appeared impervious to reasoned thought and only wished to     put across a cranky assertion based on very little actual hard evidence     rather than his coincidental speculation. I even wondered whether the
    whole thing was so far-fetched as to be a spoof..............
    So I've only now caught up with the latest developments through the
    thoughtful considered responses to the Lute List of people like you and
    Jurgen Frenz.  I too see no reason to change my final comment to
    Neumann (pasted below) made in April last and the spam filter will
    Martyn Hodgson

      2 Apr at 12:10 PM

    To T[1]ristan von Neumann [2]lutelist Net
    Thank you for this.  As I understand it your basic thesis is that,
    because there
    appears to be some similarities, various European early musical forms
    have been directly copied at the time (and appropriated by Monteverdi
    others) from existing music found on the subcontinent.
    It will certainly be instructive to read your promised full and
    properly developed
    paper on this matter. In which refereed scholarly journal are you
    seeking to have
    it published? - and when will it appear?
    Incidentally, I'm sure you will be aware of a basic rule of formal
    logic employed
    in any recognised objective  analysis: - correlation does not imply
    causation.  A
    mistaken belief that correlation signifies causation is, as you will
    also be aware,
    a questionable cause logical fallacy.   No doubt you will, therefore,
    address this particularly relevant matter in your forthcoming paper.
    Martyn Hodgson

    From: Ido Shdaimah <>
    To: lutelist Net <>
    Sent: Friday, 10 August 2018, 12:46
    Subject: [LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re:
    Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
      Dear Tristan,
      The Harmonium isn't traditionally used Indian Classical music:
      In Indian music, only the Swaras (notes) Pa and Sa are set on exact       points. The other Sawaras vary within ranges called Swarakshetras.
      maximal and minimal points are called Shrutis, and there are 22 of       them. When using different Ragas, different Shrutis are used for each
      Swara. The Harmonium is equal-tempered, and as so, cannot operate
      in that natural environment of Indian Classical music.
      Also, historically, the Harmonium became popular in India during the
      mid-late 19 century, due to portability and ease of play.
      I think one of the biggest problems with your theory is that if Raags
      and CI music theory was so well known in the west, then we would
      probably have ample evidence of that use, like mentions in theory
      You also need to consider another, more practical issue: such a deep       musical exchange you suggest can only happen if there is EXTENSIVE       direct contact between the two cultures. You aren't suggesting here       that one composer used IC theory in his composition, but ALL of them.
      This would mean every single composer would have had to have deep
      knowledge of IC music, and that would require a much bigger contact.
      Even these days with the ease of communication and knowledge
      acquisition, most classical composers are generally oblivious about
      Finally, if you really want your hypothesis evaluated you have to
      it down and  clearly compare structures from Western pieces to Raags,       using both Western and IC theory terminology (Shrutis, Swaras, Raags,
      Chalan, Tala, all that from the IC side). Right now what you are
      is creating a mesh up then expecting everybody to hear what tou heard       without providing any vigorous explanation. Maybe it's telling that
      body else seems to hear what you hear.
      P. S.
      Are my messages coming out indented correctly?
      On Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 05:40 Tristan von Neumann
      <[1][3]> wrote:
        Dear Jurgen,
        do you consider this an illusion too?

        How do you explain this? Listen to the *tonal* percussion and where
        lute goes into cadence.
        How do you explain that the harmonium basically acts like a regal
        in this context?
        You can have spices, cloth and slaves from India, but music, *not
        In a world that is constantly in need of music because there were
        mobile phones or even recordings?...
        This I only found because I believe that the influence is true.
        If I were a skeptic like you, I would never have achieved anything
        because I would not have tried.
        Am 09.08.2018 um 20:32 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
        > Dear Jurgen,
        > I am afraid you are ill advised in regards to the history of the
        > discovery and exploration of the Indian subcontinent.
        > Already with the first voyage of Vasco to India, Indians have
        > brought to Europe to have a look at the Portuguese trading goods,
        > return to India later and tell about what would be available for
        > kings and their populace.
        > Numerous detailed expeditions accounted for the discovery of
        people and
        > culture of India already in the 16th century (Jesuit Mission).         > The first German expedition to India by the houses of Fugger etc.         > together with Italian Merchants of the famous families took place
        > already in 1505/06.
        > There are already many elements of Indian architecture used in         > Portuguese Manuelism architecture in the beginning of the 16th
        > What exactly is your argument against musical transfer?

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