D'accord: it works well with the thumb stretched out. This is not what
puzzles me, but the question does why he did not let the description of
playing diminutions follow directly after the description of the basic
thumb-out position and playing. The music of the Thesaurus Harmonicus
comes in books (of Preludes, or Passamezi, or Courantes a.s.o.), and
the whole print is, like these huge late sixteenth/early seventeenth
century manuscript anthologies of lute music from Germany, organized
like an encyclopedia. Only the treatise is, at least as to the
right-hand technique, a bit meandering â or so it seems to me, ;)
Best wishes,
Joachim
-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
Datum: 2019-03-11T22:43:07+0100
Von: "magnus andersson" <maan7...@yahoo.com>
An: "Lute List" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Joachim Lüdtke"
<jo.lued...@t-online.de>
"Besard's treatise is a bit puzzling because he first instructs his
readers to use a thumb-out technique (except when one has a short
thumb, as Martin has already written), but later describes thumb-index
alteration for diminutions, except when the bass is too active."
I don´t see any reason for enpuzzlement here, thumb-index alteration
can work great with the thumb stretched out.
A question out of curiosity: I recall having looked through quite a few
of the iconographic sources a while ago, and
to my surprise I can´t remember seeing that the thumb-inside technique
was being used on any instruments with 7 or more courses. Anyone out
there who can provide any paintings that proves that assumption wrong?
Is it true that thumb-out on 6 courses seem to have been more common
than thumb-in on 7c (or more courses), if we only look at the
iconographic material?
Best wishes,
Magnus
On Monday, March 11, 2019, 10:12:41 PM GMT+1, Joachim Lüdtke
<jo.lued...@t-online.de> wrote:
Well, Vallet states that if one finds a single dot beneath a
â(tablature) letter, it is to be plucked with the first finger. Two
small lines mean the second finger, and if there is none of these, the
thumb plays the course. There is a lot of music in in Paradisus Musicus
Testudinis which is without the signs for the second finger, but I do
not think that this means it is to be played thumb under, and only
those pieces which have the sign for the second finger are to be played
thumb out. ;)
Besard's treatise is a bit puzzling because he first instructs his
readers to use a thumb-out technique (except when one has a short
thumb, as Martin has already written), but later describes thumb-index
alteration for diminutions, except when the bass is too active.
In the englished version in Varietie of Lute Lessons, the passages are
C verso and C2 recto.
Dear Ron,
I will look this up in the sources when I am back home on Sunday, but I
think Martin is right.
Best
Joachim
P.S. You are right too, concerning historical playing technique vs what
a lot of us do today, but I would not insist on 1600 as the point from
whence they didn't underthumb their scales anymore
Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone.
Originalnachricht
Von: Ron Andrico
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 13:59
An: Martin Shepherd; Lute List
Antwort an: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
Perhaps the mis-remembered quotation is a conflation of Besard and
Vallet, who recommended thumb-index for fast passages. Nevertheless,
music from around 1600 forward in time should be played with the
thumb
out if we are to follow the written advice and the iconography. I
still see far too may baroque lute and theorbo players using
thumb-under, which is patently absurd given both the historical
precedent and the physical layout of extended bass instruments.
Isn't
it about time lute players moved forward from the guitarist versus
lutenist nonsense from the 1970s and played according to actual
historical examples?
__________________________________________________________________
From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
behalf
of Martin Shepherd <[4]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 8:23 AM
To: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
Dear All,
Just from memory - Besard insists on thumb-out technique as being the
best, but allows that people with short thumbs may find thumb-inside
easier. I find it inconceivable that he would change hand position
during a piece, and see no reason why you should not use thumb-index
alternation in fast runs with thumb out - flamenco guitarists do it
all
the time.
The fingering dots in the ML lute book (c.1640) give an interesting
indication of this. In Dowland's fantasia (Poulton 1, ML ff.14v-15r)
all runs are marked to be played middle-index, except where a running
passage has infrequent bass notes (f.15, second system) which have no
double dots (meaning middle), so presumably to be be played
thumb-index. Once the bass notes become more frequent (and the speed
of the treble movement stays the same, 3rd and 4th systems) the
middle-index alternation returns. Then a fast cadential formula (end
of
system 5) lacks any double dots and is therefore thumb-index.
I'm sure there are many other examples like this. Nigel North's
recent
talk at the Lute Society gave many interesting examples of RH
fingerings.
Martin
On 06/03/2019 08:06, [5]jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote:
> Sorry: 'original', naturally!
>
> Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone.
> Originalnachricht
> Von: [6]jo.lued...@t-online.de
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 07:49
> An: Lute net
> Antwort an: [7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
>
>
> Dear Alan, dear Jurgen,
>
> There is something to that effect in all 'oroginal' versions of
Besard's instructions, that is: 1603 and 1617. I do not remember if
ye
text englished contains the passage...
>
> Best
>
> Joachim
>
>
> Originalnachricht
> Von: Alain Veylit
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 04:32
> Antwort an: [8]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Cc: Lute net
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
>
>
> Jurgen,
>
> It's been a while and I was quoting from memory... but I am sure I
saw
> it somewhere - perhaps the instructions translated in English in
the
> Varietie of Lute Lessons?
>
> Or maybe the use of dots in Thesaurus Harmonicus ...
>
> Alain
>
> On 3/4/19 11:11 PM, Jurgen Frenz wrote:
>> It would be totally excellent if you'd find out where Besard made
that suggestion.
>> Thanks,
>> jurgen
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------
>> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
>>
>> Jalà �l ad-Dën Muhammad Rumi
>>
>> â⬠�â⬠�â⬠�â⬠�â⬠�â⬠�â⬠�
Original Message â⬠�â⬠�â⬠�â⬠�ââ¬
�â⬠�â⬠�.
>> On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 10:40 AM, Alain Veylit
<[9]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
>>
>>> That's odd because I remember O'Dette's advice for the left-hand
pinky:
>>> plant it vertically on the string instead of laying it flat -
which
>>> requires more effort. That should mean his left-hand little
finger
can
>>> bend... Not a conclusive proof for the right hand little finger
but
...
>>> For Renaissance lute, if I am not mistaken, the right-hand little
finger
>>> is supposed to be parallel to the sound board, just lightly
brushing on
>>> it, and it should remain extended.
>>>
>>> Anybody with a good explanation as to how additional basses would
alter
>>> the right hand position? If I recall, Besard still argued for a
mixed
>>> technique, thumb-under for fast runs and thumb over for whatever
else
>>> (chords). I think it is logical that increasing dedication of the
thumb
>>> to the bass strings does account for the shift in right-hand
position,
>>> and when you think about it, it is not a small revolution in
music
>>> history...
>>>
>>> On 3/4/19 7:12 PM, Richard Brook wrote:
>>>
>>>> Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O'Dette couldn't bend
that finger down by itself. Though I think Pat said in my case the
fault was in my head, not in the stars.
>>>> D ick Brook
>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:58 PM, Alain Veylit
[10]al...@musickshandmade.com wrote:
>>>>> Good one Rainer - Anybody remembers the title of that American
series from the 60s-70s where aliens live among us in disguise, and
the
only sure way to identify them is that they cannot bend their little
finger?
>>>>> Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique, Jimmy Hendrix
playing with his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think?
>>>>> On 3/4/19 12:19 PM, Rainer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to
the
rules of guitar playing. Experimenting with various techniques has
probably always been a popular habit among musicians, whether by
choice
or force.
>>>>>> And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand. Perhaps he
was
an alien :)
>>>>>> Rainer
>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>>>> [1][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
>
>
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