Dear Matthew,
Yes - of course this is the case. But you are making the common mistake
of discussing theoretical temperaments (mainly, in practice, only
employable on keyboard instruments) with practical temperaments
appropriate for fretted instruments such as the lute.
The problem is, of course, that a single fret across the fingerboard
may have to suit for both a major or a minor semitone depending on the
open tuning and key. Such things as slanted frets can sometimes be
used on the viol when playing simple single melodic lines, but with
chords, as commonly found on the lute, matters are entirely different.
The idea of tastini as reported by Galilei (1584) has also beguiled
some modern players but in practice they are far from practical for
works with any significant degree of fingering complexity and,
moreover, Galilei himself makes it clear that it is not a practice he
advocates - indeed, he castigates those few who employ it.
Incidentally, there's also a real dearth of iconographic evidence to
support the practice (or indeed slanted frets) on the lute which is,
surely, very telling.
In short, all these theoretical meanderings about meantone on the lute
is, with the exception of small parts of the repertoire, simply
self-delusion and wishful thinking ('I have a better sense of tuning
than you'......).
As mentioned by others earlier in this thread, early evidence clearly
points in the direction of some approximation to equal temperament.
MH
On Saturday, 20 July 2019, 17:40:54 BST, Matthew Daillie
<[email protected]> wrote:
Yes, there are minor thirds in 1/4 comma meantone that are wider than
in equal temperament and so closer to pure (they beat less)! Minor
thirds in equal temperament are more than 15 cents narrower than pure.
Maybe you were referring to augmented seconds (in meantone, enharmonic
accidentals are no longer the same). Obviously one has to choose
between, say, a D# and an Eb (unless you have a keyboard with split
accidentals).
Best,
Matthew
Le 20 juil. 2019 à 16:45, [1][email protected] a écrit :
> It is a lot more harrowing to hear the minor 3rds that are too wide,
resulting from various masochistic temperaments.
>
> And the use of the latter in music that contains chromaticism is
simply insufferable.
> RT
>
> ====
> [2]http://turovsky.org
> Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
>
>> On Jul 20, 2019, at 10:28 AM, Matthew Daillie
<[3][email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> It has been well-documented that the instructions published by
Robert Dowland in the Varietie of Lute Lessons are critically flawed
(see Lindley pp. 81-83).
>>
>> It is highly probable that something close to equal temperament was
used during the renaissance period but so were several variants of
meantone temperament. The latter favours pure major thirds and creates
major and minor semitones with far more character than equal
temperament, notably for the many chromatic passages prevalent in
renaissance music. I think a deeper understanding of temperaments is a
prerequisite for playing early music and much can be learned by looking
at how other instruments were tuned. 1/4 comma meantone was clearly
used on early keyboards and it would be pretty unthinkable today to
listen to a performance of 16th century Italian music or the English
virginalists in equal temperament (obviously as we move into the
baroque period, circulating temperaments were adopted that favoured
purer fifths rather than pure major thirds).
>>
>> When one gets used to playing a piece in 1/4 comma meantone with its
pure, beatless major thirds, it can be quite a harrowing experience to
go back to equal temperament as one is conscious of just how much
crucial intervals beat and everything appears to be out of tune. It is
not necessarily easy to adapt meantone successfully to the lute, but it
can be done with time and careful adjustments of frets and the addition
of tastini. 1/5 comma meantone is quite popular amongst major lutenists
and although the thirds are no longer pure, it does impart far more
character than equal temperament and does not require such extreme fret
placement (which can be particularly uncomfortable on the short string
length of a lute in a', for example). If one has access to an early
keyboard and the help of an experienced player, it can be easier to
appreciate the fundamentals of various temperaments than on the lute
(metal strings facilitate the detection of beatless intervals).
>>
>> Rather than being a daunting prospect, the use of meantone
temperaments on the lute can add further enjoyment to one's playing and
enrich our musical world.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Matthew
>>
>>
>>> Le 20 juil. 2019 Ã 13:22, Ron Andrico <[4][email protected]> a
écrit :
>>>
>>> Tristan, the various alternative temperaments may sound nice for a
>>> narrow repertory with the excepted odd note, but musicians who
>>> understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for
>>> lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal
>>> temperament.
>>>
>>> RA
>>> __________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>> From: [5][email protected] <[6][email protected]>
on behalf
>>> of Tristan von Neumann <[7][email protected]>
>>> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 4:04 PM
>>> To: [8][email protected] <[9][email protected]>
>>> Subject: [LUTE] Lute Temperaments
>>>
>>> I know this is a wide topic...
>>> Today, I changed my fret setup from Gerle to Dowland (Thanks to Mr.
>>> Niskanen and his marvellous calculator), because I mostly play
later
>>> 16th century music.
>>> It sounds somewhat "brighter" in the keys preferred then.
>>> Maybe I will also try what Galilei recommended.
>>> Which one did you try and which one do you prefer (for solo
playing).
>>> What are your thoughts on character vs. versatility?
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> [1][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> References
>>>
>>> 1. [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>
--
References
1. mailto:[email protected]
2. http://turovsky.org/
3. mailto:[email protected]
4. mailto:[email protected]
5. mailto:[email protected]
6. mailto:[email protected]
7. mailto:[email protected]
8. mailto:[email protected]
9. mailto:[email protected]
10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
