Just took a peek at Holborne's tablature--his c's appear to be a hybrid
open polygon: more to it than the r-like c. A pentagon with one side
missing? That's his tablature c--in his text the c is rounded, typical
of today's style.
Leonard
-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Stetson <christophertstet...@gmail.com>
To: Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. <sa...@gerbode.net>
Cc: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tue, Aug 4, 2020 12:25 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: e vs c
Hi, all.
If my memory serves there are p's, q's, r's, and s's in Holborne's
cittern book. I don't remember what he did about c's.
Stay safe, dry, and well.
Best to all and keep playing.
Chris.
On Tue, Aug 4, 2020, 11:22 AM Frank A. Gerbode, M.D.
<[1][1]sa...@gerbode.net> wrote:
Thanks, David.
Arguably, that kind of a c could be easily confused with an r,
but as r
is rarely, if ever, seen in lute tab (has anyone ever seen
it?),
this
isn't a problem.
I like the "r" form of the letter c because it is clear and
unambiguous. Also because I cut my teeth on Varietie and on
English
lute mss. In early days, I used to hand-copy a lot of sources
and,
having terrible handwriting, I used the "r" style for clarity.
I also find tab letters on spaces easier to read because the
ciphers
are not transected by a line. And, yes, this makes it easier to
add
readable fingerings.
It's all about clarity and readability.
--Sarge
On 8/4/2020 02:17, David Van Edwards wrote:
Martin is right, this is just the standard English way of
writing C
in all sorts of contexts not just lute tablature.
To illustrate I've uploaded a small section of an English
will
from
1574 which reads "mercy to receive" and in it you can see the
normal
form of the R as well as the C and the E
[1][2][2]https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/R%20for%20C.htm
Best wishes,
David
At 08:34 +0200 4/8/20, Martin Shepherd wrote:
The "r" is in most English lute MSS and in all the lute song
prints
as well. In fact it's not an "r" at all, just another way of
writing
"c".
My biggest readability complaint is writing the letters on
the
lines
rather than between them - a habit which seems to have become
quite
common with some modern editors of lute music. And just to
open
up a
few more worms, I find French tablature very convenient
because
(although I read all kinds of tab fluently) I can write in
fingerings, which can get very confusing in Italian tab.
M
On 04/08/2020 02:27, T.J. Sellari wrote:
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Tristan von Neumann
[2]<[1][3][3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
Date: Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:14 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: e vs c
To: [[3]2][4][4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
[4]<[3][5][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Ah yes. I forgot about those.
I hate English prints. As if they were deliberately
trying
to
make
things unreadable.
Morlaye is the best imho.
On 04.08.20 01:30, Denys Stephens wrote:
> Dear Sean & Tristan, the Robert Dowland à ¢Varietie of
lute
lessons'
and Barley's à ¢New book of tablature' both have à ¢r'
for
à ¢c'
although the
latter is engraved rather than typeset. I suspect that
the
Varietie of
lute lessons may have had an undue influence in modern
times
because it
was the first facsimile that many of us who were involved
in
lute music
in those days owned in the Scott edition.
> Best wishes, Denys
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 4 Aug 2020, at 00:02, Tristan von Neumann
[5]<[4][6][6]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
>>
>> Good question Sean...
>>
>> I think there's no real development in this.
>>
>> For example, Fuhrmann's Testudo Gallica&Germanica uses
"on-line"
fonts,
>> and "c".
>>
>> This is very annoying sometimes if you want to play
from
the
facsimile...
>>
>> In manuscripts, Marsh Lute Book uses c, it's often
very
confusing
next
>> to the e.
>>
>> French "above line" prints from earlier decades
(Morlaye, Le
Roy)
also
>> use c but I find those prints very readable.
>>
>> I don't recall "r" in prints, but maybe I missed some.
>>
>>
>>> On 04.08.20 00:56, Sean Smith wrote:
>>> Dear all,
>>> There's a long tradition of scribing the cipher
'r' in
place
of 'c' in
>>> manuscripts of lute tablature. It's quick and
easy and
serves
to
>>> differentiate a 'c' from an 'e'. My question is,
did
this
carry over
>>> into historic printed tablatures with
standardized
typefaces?
Can
>>> anyone suggest examples? Lute, guitar, mandora,
etc?
>>> I don't recall any in Renaissance prints--tho I
could
easily
be
>>> wrong--but I know I don't have enough experience
with
baroque
>>> tablatures!
>>> Tia, Sean
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>
[5][6][7][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
Actually, the letter that looks like an "r" is actually a
"c" in
English secretary hand. That's probably why the "r" is
featured
in
English sources.
If you scroll down to the chart of miniscule letters here
[6][7][8][8]http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography
-fo
r-ever
yone-cracking-old.html you'll see various form(s) of c.
Tom
--
References
1. [8]mailto:[9][9]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
2. [9]mailto:[10][10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
3. [10]mailto:[11][11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. [11]mailto:[12][12]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
5.
[12][13][13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
6.
[13][14][14]http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography
-
for-
everyone-cracking-old.html
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus
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Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([15][16][16]sa...@gerbode.net)
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Home phone: 707-820-1759
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"The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."
--
References
1. [18][18]https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/R for C.htm
2. mailto:[1][19][19]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
3. mailto:[20]2][21][20]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. mailto:[3][22][21]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. mailto:[4][23][22]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
6.
[24][23]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
7.
[25][24]http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-for
-
ever
8. mailto:[26][25]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
9. mailto:[27][26]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
10. mailto:[28][27]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
11. mailto:[29][28]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
12.
[30][29]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
13.
[31][30]http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-for
-
everyone-cracking-old.html
14. [32][31]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
15. mailto:[33][32]sa...@gerbode.net
16. [34][33]http://www.gerbode.net/
--
References
1. mailto:[34]sa...@gerbode.net
2. [35]https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/R for C.htm
3. mailto:[36]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
4. mailto:[37]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. mailto:[38]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
6. mailto:[39]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
7. [40]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
8. [41]http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-fo
9. mailto:[42]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
10. mailto:[43]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
11. mailto:[44]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
12. mailto:[45]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
13. [46]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
14.
[47]http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-for-
15. [48]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
16. mailto:[49]sa...@gerbode.net
17. [50]http://www.gerbode.net/
18. [51]https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/R
19. mailto:[52]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
20. mailto:2
21. mailto:[53]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
22. mailto:[54]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
23. mailto:[55]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
24. [56]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
25.
[57]http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-for-eve
r
26. mailto:[58]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
27. mailto:[59]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
28. mailto:[60]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
29. mailto:[61]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
30. [62]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
31.
[63]http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-for-eve
ryone-cracking-old.html
32. [64]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
33. mailto:[65]sa...@gerbode.net
34. [66]http://www.gerbode.net/
--
References
1. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
2. https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/R%20for%20C.htm
3. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
6. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
8. http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography
9. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
10. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
11. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
12. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
14. http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-
15. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
16. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
17. http://www.gerbode.net/
18. https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/R
19. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
20. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
21. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
22. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
23. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
24. http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-for-
25. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
26. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
27. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
28. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
29. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
30. http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-for-
31. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
32. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
33. http://www.gerbode.net/
34. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
35. https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/R
36. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
37. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
38. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
39. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
40. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
41. http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-fo
42. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
43. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
44. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
45. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
46. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
47. http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-for-
48. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
49. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
50. http://www.gerbode.net/
51. https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/R
52. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
53. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
54. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
55. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
56. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
57. http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-for-ever
58. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
59. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
60. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
61. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
62. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
63.
http://morristownnhpmuseum.blogspot.com/2016/10/paleography-for-everyone-cracking-old.html
64. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
65. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
66. http://www.gerbode.net/
