On 03/13/2018 09:43 PM, Uwe Stöhr wrote:
> Am 12.03.2018 um 04:32 schrieb Richard Heck:
>> That is a serious mistake: to focus on "average users". But it has
>> clearly become pointless to discuss this any longer.
> Dear Richard,
> I cannot leave this commented because it is too fundamental. I tried
> to calm down, but cannot.

Pardon me if this seems presumptuous, but it does seem to me as if you
are much too invested,
emotionally, in these issues. We are talking about software.

> What is LyX for? It is a frontend for LaTeX. It is designed to hide
> LaTeX from the users. 

That is your opinion, I understand. But I disagree. It is true that LyX
makes it possible to
take advantage of LaTeX's typesetting abilities without knowing anything
about LaTeX
*as long as your needs are very basic*. It is misleading to tell people
anything else, and I do
not myself see why we should cater specially to users whose needs remain
at such a basic
level. To me, what is most valuable about LyX is how it *eases the
learning curve* for
people who are new to LaTeX. Honestly: Look at the kinds of posts we get
on lyx-users.
The great majority of these are actually about LaTeX. I wonder how many
users we LOSE
because of false advertising: users who think LyX will make it possible
for them to do all
kinds of things that you simply can't do without knowing some LaTeX.
E.g., change how
section titles are displayed. It's a very simple thing to want to do,
but it is actually very
hard to do in LyX, as opposed to Word, and for good reason.

There's a real change of mindset involved in moving from Word etc to LyX
and LaTeX
that we understate at our peril.

>> It has become a serious problem the extent to which *MiKTeX* bugs now
>> delay LyX releases,
> When did we had the last time a delay because of a bug in MiKTeX?

There have been at least two such occasions since I've been branch
maintainer. I can
look up the emails if you like. And this one has been really painful,
requiring three or
four different installers before we even got to the release.

> We had much, much more problems in the past with ImageMagick. I had to
> create
> many installer builds because of this program.

I know, and I have had to upload them. This is just the same problem.
LyX should not be
integrated with such programs the way it apparently is on Windows. OSX
and Linux users
do not have these issues. We do not need new installers, because the
installation of LyX is
independent of these other programs. They can be upgraded independently,
if users need
new features or bug fixes, or not, if they do not. I do not see why we
cannot do something
similar on Windows.

>> LyX was never meant to be so closely integrated with a particular LaTeX
>> distribution, and it was a mistake to make it so.
> Again, please try our LyX under windows by yourself before you continue.
> take a Win users without knowledge of LaTeX and they should use TeXLive. 

I am not saying you should integrate LyX instead with TeXLive. I am
saying that it
would be a lot better for everyone if the Windows installer, just as on
OSX or Linux,
ONLY installed LyX and did not try to manage everything else. To try to
do what you
have been trying to do is to try to do something *impossible*.

Please read what follows carefully.

I do understand why you'd like to manage everything on which LyX
depends: TeX,
ImageMagick, etc, etc, etc. It's a great idea to have a package
management system
that handles all those dependencies. But you are consigning yourself to
misery if you
are going to try create such a thing yourself on Windows just for LyX.
The various
Linux distributions have HUGE TEAMS of people who work on nothing else.
It is
a HUGE project to do this. Linxu distros are incredibly careful about
what updates they
incorporate into various releases; they distinguish 'long term' releases
from 'bleeding
edge' releases; and so forth. Whereas LyX on Windows, by contrast, seems
to be
vulnerable to every update of every piece of software on which it
depends. That
makes LyX, or our users, way too vulnerable to bugs that turn up in
other programs
on which we rely. Ask José about it. He has a lot of experience. And the
we have just had with MiKTeX make this all the more apparent.

Granted, users who decided to install MiKTeX with LyX would still have
problems. But then those would be *MiKTeX* problems, not our problems, and
not problems that would delay the release of a MAJOR version for a week
or more.
Can't you see how ridiculous that is?

It's a valiant effort what you are trying to do, but in the end it has
created a huge
problem both for you and for the rest of the LyX community.


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