Re: [M100] Model T upgrades

[Ken Pettit]

Hi Ray,

No, it wouldn't take a year.  I also think it would only take maybe 
150-200 hours after thinking about it (this is about 6 solid weeks).  I 
think this could be done in probably a 4-5 month period. And thinking 
about it, using a Gerber Editor to simply update the footprint of the SD 
card socket might only take a day or two (counting careful review and 
triple checking).  I don't have any experience with editing Gerbers 
directly, but I think it shouldn't be too hard to learn pretty quickly.

I like the idea of the original case better also.

Ken

On 7/31/17 11:10 PM, ray gordon wrote:

Hi Ken,

no worries on the speed of the reply, we all have busy lives, and you 
certainly have your hands full. So, would 1 year be a sufficient 
amount of time from now to get evereything together? that's an hour a 
day, or 8 hours a week. we could strech that out if necessary. I 
think, also, that there are pcb houses who can replicate boards from 
an original pcb, though the new connector would have to be arranged 
for. John's idea of a 3d printed case is valid, but I'd vote for the 
original case design instead. just me. Best of luck in China!

ray



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*From:* M100 <m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com> on behalf of Ken 
Pettit <petti...@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Monday, July 31, 2017 8:42 AM
*To:* m...@bitchin100.com
*Subject:* Re: [M100] Model T upgrades
Hey Guys,

Sorry for the delayed input to this thread ... been busy getting ready 
for my China trip on Friday.

If we were going to do another run of NADSBoxes (and possibly REX) via 
"group funding", I would want to set it up as an official project with 
a schedule, milestones, etc. Particularly expectations on 
return-on-investment for anyone contributing to the fund.  When it was 
just me spening my own money (and even more than that, time), it 
didn't matter when or even if I ever got it done.  But that changes 
considerably when other start to have real money involved.

When I did the original run of NADSBox, I was effectively single with 
no kids (they had moved to a different state). So I had an abundance 
of time on my hands.  Now I am re-married with two kids ages 5 and 3 
and I have a building full of ASIC engineers who report to me.  To me, 
my time has become more valuable than money (never thought I would say 
somthing like that!  :)  Deveoping the original NADSBox took 2,200 
hours.  A second run wouldn't be *nearly* as much time, but it would 
take on the order of 300-400 hours.  This is because I no longer have 
a PADS PCB license and must re-do the layout in Cadence Allegro.  A 
project schedule would look something like:

1.  Check for parts availablity (I know the PIC is obsolete but still 
available).
2.  Select a new SD card socket
3.  Redo the PCB layout (this would be identical layout, just in a new 
CAD package).  When I tried to import to Allegro, it sorta got there, 
but all of the net names were lost and it shows thousands of design 
rule check (DRC) errors.  DRC count should be zero.
4.  Do a small test run of 5-6 PCBs to validate the "new" layout.
5.  Program and test the new boards.   Validate they fit in the 
existing NADSBox enclosure.
6.  Make any necnessary changes to the PCB if it doesn't work.
7.  If needed, do a second run of 5-6 PCBs to validate the potential 
changes from #6
8.  Make any necessary changes to the enclosure diagrams and have new 
enclosures built.  These were done by Serpack in the LA area and have 
a 3-4 week lead-time.  This is largest expense of the project in terms 
of cash.  The setup fee for pad printing and machining is on the order 
of $2,500 alone. That doesn't include actual price of the enclosures 
or the per-unit cost of performing the machining (these two together 
probably add up to $23).  The setup fee is amortized over the number 
of enclosures you purchase.
9.  Generate instructions, software and tools so a PCB house can 
perform programming and testing of the boards.
10.  Get a PCB house to manufacture, assemble, program, test the PCBs
11.  Provide enclosures to PCB house along with mounting screws, etc. 
and get them to assemble the final units.

With a bit of Steve's assistance I could manage getting the board 
house to do assembly and programming of REX also.  We would probably 
want to change the Gerbers such that the PCB edges are true 
castellated edges instead of needing to be hand grinded.  There are 
PCB houses that can do these cleanly with the proper copper clearance 
from the edge of the PCB and liquid solder mask rules.

Ken

On 7/30/17 12:13 AM, Gary Weber wrote:
With a Woolly, the REX would be obsolete, no?   But if there's indeed 
a need for all three products, then indeed I would stand beside you 
on the sharing of all three.

On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 11:42 PM, ray gordon <ray...@hotmail.com 
<mailto:ray...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

    Hi Gary;

    I'd be happy to have someone share putting up the money for
    everything. If you don't think rex is as an attractive an idea,
    I'm willing to bear that burden alone, and we could split nads
    and woolly costs between us.

    Glad to have you aboard!

    ray




    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    *From:* M100 <m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com
    <mailto:m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com>> on behalf of Gary
    Weber <m100l...@gweber.org <mailto:m100l...@gweber.org>>
    *Sent:* Saturday, July 29, 2017 3:41 PM

    *To:* m...@bitchin100.com <mailto:m...@bitchin100.com>
    *Subject:* Re: [M100] Model T upgrades
    Ray,

    If you feel compelled to contribute to another production run
    effort, I guarantee you that you are not the only one interested
    in sharing in that contribution.

    Here's my take on things:

    NADSBox -- I think there probably is quite a bit of interest in
    this product even today.  I'm willing to bet there would be at
    least 10-15 immediate pending sales on this given the interest
    I've seen on this list alone.
    REX -- This might be interesting as well, however it sounds like
    WOOLLY would likely be a better place to put engineering effort &
    dollars.
    WOOLLY -- I'm betting the majority of folks on this list would
    likely want one of these.  If I had to pick only one product
    alone to focus on and bring to market, I'd pick this one!  REX
    functionality, RAM expansion (for CP/M), and WiFi capability. 
    All of that would be amazing to have in one piece of hardware
    that can fit into an Option ROM socket.  We're talking about a
    potential replacement for all of the ReMem and REX variations
    that existed previously, and then some.

    I'm willing to contribute significantly to the effort to bring
    any and all of these products to life (for the second time for
    REX & NADSBox of course).  And when I say contribute, I don't
    just mean encouragement & testing & labor.  I'm talking about
    financial.  :)  Probably the areas I can best help in would be
    fronting a good chunk of the costs for sourcing of parts &
    production, and then also on the eventual fulfillment. (Either
    hosted on Club100.org or on Web8201.net or some other central
    hub, doesn't matter.  I can definitely assist on the eCommerce end.)

    Gary





    On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 3:26 PM, ray gordon <ray...@hotmail.com
    <mailto:ray...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

        Hi Ken,

        That's all fine by me. I would have to get a cashier's check
        and mail it to you, because I can't pay that much by
        paypal all at once. Maybe I could paypal it to you over the
        course of a week.

        Let me know when you're all set to move.

        ray




        ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        *From:* M100 <m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com
        <mailto:m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com>> on behalf of Ken
        Pettit <petti...@gmail.com <mailto:petti...@gmail.com>>
        *Sent:* Friday, July 28, 2017 8:50 PM

        *To:* m...@bitchin100.com <mailto:m...@bitchin100.com>
        *Subject:* Re: [M100] Model T upgrades
        Hi Ray,

        When I did the first run of NADSBoxes in 2008 / 2009
        timeframe, my up-front cash expenditure was $13K for 240
        NADSBoxes. This is when I was having them built and assembled
        in China.  I probably still could have them built and
        assembled there, though it is a bit more challenging since I
        no longer live there.

        Turns out I am traveling to China next week and will be
        visiting Shenzhen for 5 days!  YEA!!!  Maybe I could visit my
        old haunts while there (in fact I am looking forward to it).

        One of the concerns with NADSBox is that I need to update the
        layout a bit to select a different SD card socket ... the
        socket used in the last round of NADSBoxes was acquired from
        a Chinese source with no real part number or way to track
        it.  So the footprint is specific to that part which is no
        longer available.

        I am working actively on Woolly which would replace REX and
        in a way, NADSBox, via TPDD access to a host via WiFi.  But
        this is still a big development effort, both in terms of
        hardware and software.

        If you still wanted to put up the cash after reading this, we
        probably wouldn't need to build 240 NADSBoxes as demand isn't
        what it was in 2009, but it would still be in the $8K - $9K
        range I would guess for NADSBox alone.  I don't know for REX.

        Ken

        On 7/28/17 7:05 PM, ray gordon wrote:

        I'm willing to put up the cash necessary if Ken & Stephen
        would be willing to do another run of NADS & REX.

        Ray g




        ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        *From:* M100 <m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com>
        <mailto:m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com> on behalf of
        Gregory McGill <arcadeshop...@gmail.com>
        <mailto:arcadeshop...@gmail.com>
        *Sent:* Friday, July 28, 2017 11:50 AM
        *To:* m...@bitchin100.com <mailto:m...@bitchin100.com>
        *Subject:* Re: [M100] Model T upgrades
        nope.. it seems we go through this weekly, rex is open
        source, you are welcome to make your own if you are up to
        it,. i have two i am meaning to build but surface mount is
        not my thing so they keep getting put off.. boards are on
        oshpark and the instructions are googlable nadsbox is not
        available..  you can use a pc and laddiealpha or other tools
        there's one for android too with a togo cable

        Greg

        On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Robert Prather
        <robert.s.prat...@gmail.com
        <mailto:robert.s.prat...@gmail.com>> wrote:

            Hi All,

            Just got a Model 100 off of eBay. If I'd known of the
            Club 100 site, I'd have purchased one there. There's
            some yellow on this one, but the memory appears maxed
            out (installed internally), so wasn't a bad find overall.

            I've used a color computer 2 for years, and love it, and
            decided to try out the Model 100. Love it so far.

            From the Club 100 site, I saw that there used to be
            NADSBox's available as well as REX modules.

            I'm emailing to find out if it's still possible to
            purchase these? I'm also trying to track down the little
            legs that can prop up the Model 100.

            I'd really appreciate any help anyone can provide. I
            didn't want to try ordering from the Club 100 site,
            because I wanted a confirmation before I did.

            thanks,

            Robert