Thanks for your suggestions and time Bruce!
Spencer
On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 05:17:31 PM EST, Brian K. White
<[email protected]> wrote:
What can I say, buy now, I am simply clairvoyant. haha
People ask for more info but that's for beginners. All I need to hear is
where you eat lunch and I can tell you it's from the kickback spikes on
the power lines from the large electric motors in a factory elsewhere in
your office building.
--
bkw
On 11/15/22 23:36, Spencer wrote:
> VERY interesting! You may have hit on something I'll look into. That
> part you mentioned "
> black arm or the little microfiber pad or the metal part that raises and
> lowers the arm" makes me think it could be that. Why do I say this? The
> first problem I had to remedy was when I first tried to insert a floppy
> it wouldn't go in the drive. When I opened it the mechanism was
> stuck/out of place/gummed up or someone jammed it up, and there was some
> green (looked like corrosion) goo I had to clean, but the metal pieces
> were not hooking up right keeping the diskette from being inserted, and
> the black arm was under that small piece of metal and it didn't look
> right. I opened my other drive and the black arm piece, if memory serves
> me right, was on top of that small piece of metal. I gently but with
> slight pressure put the piece back right when comparing my other drive.
> I also thought the black arm pad didn't look quite as close to the mylar
> (when I inserted the diskette) as my other drive. SO it's likely you hit
> the nail on the head (excuse the pun). I'll look again, but to repair
> this may be out of my league to repair. Repairing floppy heads should be
> done by the experienced imho unless a guided procedure is easily understood.
>
> Thanks!
>
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 09:35:51 PM EST, Brian K. White
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> On 11/15/22 20:12, Spencer wrote:
> > I found this llink
> > (Tandy_Portable_Disk_Drive_Service_Manual_26-3808S_text.pdf
> > (archive.org)
> >
> <https://ia802901.us.archive.org/13/items/tandyportablediskdriveservicemanual263808stext/Tandy_Portable_Disk_Drive_Service_Manual_26-3808S_text.pdf
>
> <https://ia802901.us.archive.org/13/items/tandyportablediskdriveservicemanual263808stext/Tandy_Portable_Disk_Drive_Service_Manual_26-3808S_text.pdf>>)
> and it says "Service Manual" on the first page. It's not the typical service
> manuals I've seen.
>
> That's the software manual and is known, and is for TPDD1 not TPDD2.
> One of the pages I linked already has it:
> tandy.wiki/TPDD
> And there you will also find an actual normal service manual, but again
> for TPDD1 not TPDD2.
>
> When I said no one has turned up a service manual, I meant for TPDD2
> because you were talking about a TPDD2.
>
> I also didn't realize you already had a whole other working TPDD2 to
> compare against.
>
> If I had known you already had a whole other TPDD2 and already made it
> work, I could have skipped a lot of that because you've already
> successfully done it, which proves your 200 is ok, your disk is ok, you
> have the right kind of disk, your cable is ok, and you know how to
> perform the bootstrap.
>
> If you have TS-DOS in rom, then really that's the best, and in that
> case, you actually don't want to try to install Floppy because they
> conflict. Just use one or the other. I mean there are ways but it's not
> worth getting into that. The simple answer is if you have TS-DOS,
> especially in ROM or via REX#, then just use that and don't even bother
> with the bootstrap procedure or Floppy.
>
> I brought up pdd.sh just for interrogating the drive at a lower level so
> you can debug what's wrong. It can show at least if the drive firmware
> is running and communicating and it's just a physical problem for
> instance. "drive not ready" from TS-DOS doesn't tell you really anything.
>
> But it's barely documented so it's also kind of arcane to try to use
> unless you're me I guess. But for instance maybe if you try a format,
> and it spins the drive and steps the head, but always fails verify, or
> if trying to read a raw sector always yields all 00's or drive not
> ready, maybe that means there's a problem with the head or the cable to
> the head. If the head never steps, that's a separate cable if I remember
> correctly. TPDD2 is a lot easier than TPDD1, but even on TPDD2 a couple
> of the cables can be a tricky. So there is some chance still for a
> pretty easy fix by checking just major functions like that to see if
> some parts work and only some parts don't work, before having to think
> about maybe something more complicated wrong with the electronics.
>
> Could be something really mechanically simple too like the disk media
> isn't being pressed against the head if there's anything wrong with that
> black arm or the little microfiber pad or the metal part that raises and
> lowers the arm.
>
> As for the crazy rocket science, that is just what's going on behind the
> scenes. The procedure is fast and easy and works, if you do it exactly
> as specified in the manual, but I have seen people fail to do that, but
> think they were doing what it said, and think it didn't work. Because
> although the directions work, they don't say why they work. So I was
> just showing what is actually happening.
>
> --
> bkw
>
>
>
> >
> > Yes I ran the IPL from Bank1 which was a file I created by following the
> > TPDD2 Operations Manual; within the IPL file it was simply => RUN
> > "COM:98N1ENN." I ran it with the drive off then I turned it on - nothing
> > happens. With my drive that works this command works fine, but with this
> > one with problems it doesn't work. Agree running this command from basic
> > would do the same thing. On pg 8 of the Ops Manual it says exactly what
> > to do as far as saving this IPL BA file. No rocket science or convoluted
> > details but simple straight forward details. I know it's not the serial
> > cable or port on the T200 because it works with my other TPDD2. So on
> > the misbehaving drive it never shows the "INITIAL PROGRAM LOADER II"
> > header. Didn't get any message about "SYSTEM EXISTS" - nada. Got the
> > Util diskette with Backup.ba and Fremem.ba and other files. My serial
> > cable is the one that I bought 2 years ago that came with the drive and
> > the Utility diskette and they work. I'm assuming it's the original cable
> > because it was nicely packed with the nice little blue carrying case
> > with Tandy written on it.
> >
> > I have TS-DOS on ROM, but haven't tried it yet with a TPDD2.
> >
> > The TPL I'm referring is the file that Ops Manual suggested creating and
> > adding the COM line to it (just one line above).
> >
> > Ultimately with the drive that works I simply ran the IPL, turned on the
> > drive and it did it's thing, then I began using the utility diskette
> > with backup and made copies of the Utility disk, so this times me the
> > problem is with the troublesome drive. I would run the IPL, turn on the
> > drive and nothing. I even went upstairs for a cup of coffee and still
> > nothing when I returned, so shift-break to get out of it. That's all
> > I've got.
> >
> > Thanks for your time! It's appreciated.
> > Spencer
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 11:40:10 PM EST, Brian K. White
> > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > The operation manual is on-line several places.
> > http://tandy.wiki/TPDD <http://tandy.wiki/TPDD
> ><http://tandy.wiki/TPDD <http://tandy.wiki/TPDD>>
> >
> > I don't think anyone has ever turned up a service manual or programming
> > manual for it yet.
> >
> > I'm confused by what you said earlier.
> > You said you ran the IPL from ram, but, the boot procedure for TPDD2
> > doesn't require saving any IPL. You just manually enter a single command
> > in BASIC and the drive does the rest.
> >
> > But there is more to it than that. You don't just run the command, you
> > have to arrange several details and conditions exactly a certain way and
> > THEN run the command at a certain point in a short sequence of
> > procedures. If you omit any steps or do anything out of order, it
> > doesn't work, and some of the details don't seem important so it's
> > natural to gloss over things not realizing they actually matter.
> >
> > It requires the special util disk for TPDD2 (the TPDD1 one won't work on
> > TPDD2), the special serial cable (includes transistors inside, it's not
> > an ordinary cable).
> >
> > Start with the drive connected and turned OFF.
> > Make sure the write-protect hole on the TPDD2 util disk is OPEN.
> > Insert the TPDD2 util disk.
> > Type into BASIC:
> > RUN "COM:98N1ENN"
> > and hit Enter
> > Only now turn the drive ON.
> >
> > The drive does the rest itself.
> >
> > The drive is checking a few different things one time at power-on to
> > decide if it should do the bootstrap.
> > * disk must be inserted
> > * disk must be write-protected
> > * DSR pin must be low
> > * disk must contain the necessary data in the expected location on disk
> > (I don't know the exact rules the firmware is following, just that the
> > util disk satisfies it.)
> > All that has to be in place before power-on. It doesn't matter any other
> > time. You can't trigger the bootstrap after the fact. It's a one-time
> > check right at power-on.
> >
> >
> > You can also skip the normal util disk and just use any other TPDD
> > client instead of Floppy. You can use a bootstrapper to install TS-DOS
> > onto the 200 from a PC, and then us TS-DOS with the drive.
> > You only need the util disk if you want to run the original Floppy tpdd
> > client that came with the drive. But it's not the best DOS so there
> > isn't really much reason to bother with it except just for academic
> > reasons. If you just want to use the drive, none of the bootup procedure
> > matters since the util disk is the only disk know that does it. Every
> > other program has to be installed some other way.
> >
> > To install TS-DOS from a pc, If Windows try github.com/bkw777/tsend
> > if mac or linux, try github.com/bkw777/dlplus
> > each one's readme has further details. You want TS-DOS.200 in either
> > case since you have a 200.
> >
> >
> > Possible problems:
> >
> > The serial cable is special and has transistors inside. Do you have an
> > original cable or a proper replacement (github.com/bkw777/TPDD_Cable),
> > or something that's just wire and connectors without the level-shifting
> > transistors? The original cables have a sharp bend at the plug that I am
> > amazed isn't broken wires on everyone's cables by now. Most original
> > cables still seem to work actually, but I just suspect that cable until
> > proven working, or if it looks like it hasn't been flexed a lot right at
> > the db25 boot and "looks good".
> >
> > The disk is special. Do you have an original TPDD2 util disk or a proper
> > copy on 720K media, or something else? TPDD1 util disk is different and
> > won't work. A copy made on a 1.44M disk may work but is untrustworthy. A
> > copy made by manually copying the files instead of using the backup
> > utility won't work.
> >
> > If by IPL you mean the 3 or-so line BASIC for TPDD1, that won't work for
> > TPDD2. If you mean the single command for TPDD2, it requires more than
> > just running the command but I already went over that above.
> >
> > If you have a linux or mac machine, and can scrounge up the necessary
> > 9-25 & gender-change adapters *without* null-modem, you can interrogate
> > the drive manually with this bash tpdd client:
> > github.com/bkw777/pdd.sh
> > see the hardware link in the readme for links to the right adapters.
> >
> > After install just try "$ pdd ls"
> > bkw@fw <mailto:bkw@fw> <mailto:bkw@fw <mailto:bkw@fw>>:~$ pdd ls
> > ----- Directory Listing [0] -----
> > AFLOPY2.SYS | F | 11475
> > BACKUP.BA | F | 1940
> > FREMEM.BA | F | 372
> > -------------------------------------
> > 186880 bytes free [WP]
> > bkw@fw <mailto:bkw@fw> <mailto:bkw@fw <mailto:bkw@fw>>:~$
> >
> > (that A in AFLOPY2.SYS is really reverse video, and stands for a
> > normally non-printable binary byte 0x01 that's on the disk but not
> > normally visible in any normal DOS like Floppy or TS-DOS, it's part of
> > what makes this disk "special")
> >
> > If you don't get a file listing, you could try increasing the debug
> > verbosity to 1, 2, 3 or more, and try the "status" command, or
> > "condition" (a similar but different command), or "ls" again, and see
> > what kind of error code(s) the drive returns.
> >
> > $ DEBUG=3 pdd status
> >
> > "drive not ready" could be all kinds of things, but the drive firmware
> > actually returns a bunch of different possible numeric error codes as
> > part of the response to every commend, and pdd.sh will display a text
> > meaning of the numerical code. (you can look at the list near the top of
> > the script too)
> > High levels of debug will show a lot of stuff that won't make a lot of
> > sense, but it's the actual traffic between the pc and the drive, in hex,
> > with the various parts of the packets seperated and parsed.
> >
> > Mainly though you just want to see if traffic is flowing in both
> > directions and you're getting meaningful responses from the drive at all.
> >
> > And see things like, can you make the drive spin on demand with commands
> > like "ls" or "format"?
> >
> > With ordinary serial cables connecting to a drive emulator on a PC
> > instead of a real drive, "drive not ready" usually means the serial
> > cable doesn't have the necessary DTR/DSR connections, or at least
> > loop-backed. It should never be a problem with an original cable and a
> > real drive, but, it's just a data point that suggests looking at the
> > serial connection. Maybe the cable, maybe the port is bad on the 200.
> > TPDD needs RX, TX GND, DTR, and DSR. RTS & CTS don't matter.
> >
> > Other things you can try are "format" to erase and format a disk.
> > It's possible the drive is good and only your disk is bad.
> > Get a "new" 720K disk (NOT 1.44M, and by "new" I just mean one you are
> > willing to erase, not your original util disk!), close the write-protect
> > door in the corner, and try "format" (from within pdd.sh I mean).
> >
> > If you don't have a TPDD2 util disk, and you think maybe the drive is ok
> > but maybe just your disk isn't, get a new or disposable 720K disk and
> > try the restore-disk command to create a new TPDD2 util disk from the
> > included disk image. The directions are in the readme on github but here
> > is a session capture too just for reference:
> > bkw@fw <mailto:bkw@fw> <mailto:bkw@fw <mailto:bkw@fw>>:~$ pdd
> >
> > (I ran "pdd" with no args, which puts you into interactive mode)
> >
> > PDD(opr:6.2,F)> status
> > Ready
> > PDD(pdd2[0]:6.2,F)> cond
> > Disk Write-Protected
> > Disk Changed
> >
> > ("PDD(opr:6.2,F)>" is a prompt that shows a bunch of
> > current mode/status stuff. The client (pdd.sh is a tpdd client)
> > doesn't know anything about the drive yet, so it's just showing
> > the default settings.
> > The status command caused some one-time init/detect stuff to
> > happen along the way before doing the actual status command,
> > so after the status command, the prompt changes to show that
> > we detected a TPDD2, and the [0] means any file operations will
> > happen in bank 0.
> >
> > The condition command returned that the disk is write-protected,
> > and detected that the drive door had been opened since the last
> > command.
> >
> > Here I also removed the disk and closed the write-protect window
> > in the corner of the disk and re-iserted.)
> >
> > PDD(pdd2[0]:6.2,F)> cond
> > Disk Changed
> >
> > (shows the drive door was opened again, and no write-protect this
> time)
> > (below for "rd" it's the full path to the file where I happen
> > to have my clone of the repo)
> >
> > PDD(pdd2[0]:6.2,F)> rd
> > ~/src/pdd.sh/disk_images/TPDD2_26-3814_Utility_Disk.pdd2
> > Restoring Disk from File:
> > "/home/bkw/src/pdd.sh/disk_images/TPDD2_26-3814_Utility_Disk.pdd2"
> > Formatting Disk, TPDD2 mode
> > : Are you sure? (y/N) y
> > [########################################] 100%
> >
> > Loading
> "/home/bkw/src/pdd.sh/disk_images/TPDD2_26-3814_Utility_Disk.pdd2"
> > Writing Disk
> > [########################################] 100%
> >
> > PDD(pdd2[0]:6.2,F)>
> > PDD(pdd2[0]:6.2,F)> ls
> > ----- Directory Listing [0] -----
> > AFLOPY2.SYS | F | 11475
> > BACKUP.BA | F | 1940
> > FREMEM.BA | F | 372
> > -------------------------------------
> > 186880 bytes free
> > PDD(pdd2[0]:6.2,F)>
> >
> > (The util disk is created, but the drive firmware will ignore it at
> > power-on unless it's write-protected, so open the write-protect door...)
> >
> > PDD(pdd2[0]:6.2,F)> ls
> > ----- Directory Listing [0] -----
> > AFLOPY2.SYS | F | 11475
> > BACKUP.BA | F | 1940
> > FREMEM.BA | F | 372
> > -------------------------------------
> > 186880 bytes free [WP]
> > PDD(pdd2[0]:6.2,F)>
> >
> > (the [WP] in the corner shows that the disk is write-protected)
> >
> > PDD(pdd2[0]:6.2,F)> exit
> > bkw@fw <mailto:bkw@fw> <mailto:bkw@fw <mailto:bkw@fw>>:~$
> >
> >
> > It's very easy for the client and the drive to get out of sync.
> > The protocol has almost no provision for detecting and handling
> > unexpected events gracefully. If anything irregular happens on either
> > side, with the drive or the pc, the two will be immediately out of step
> > and no recovering. Just power-cycle the drive and exit & restart the
> > script any time anything at all out of order happens like if you open
> > the drive door in the middle of a format or ctrl-c the script in the
> > middle of a file copy etc.
> >
> > When the drive realizes that "something ain't right", it blinks the
> > low-battery light and stops responding or doing anything.
> >
> > If at any time you see the low-battery light blinking, just power-cycle
> > the drive and start over whatever you were trying to do.
> >
> >
> > --
> > bkw
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11/14/22 18:09, Spencer wrote:
> > > Found nothing of value when I looked again. I found that on some
> earlier
> > > models (so it appears) it had a physical dip block, but on later
> models
> > > it had four jumpers on SW1 but were soldered (or etched in the
> board) at
> > > the factory and the bottom part of the four switches showed the
> contacts
> > > as open. It looks like they should be off, but please set me
> straight if
> > > my assumption is wrong. In any event still the "drive not ready" error
> > > still there ;-(. I'll see if I can find a service manual unless any of
> > > you have one you wouldn't mind sending me.
> > >
> > > Thanks for your help!
> > >
> > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 04:57:18 PM EST, Spencer
> > > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Ok I popped the hood and YES there is a dip block of four switches and
> > > all are off, and yes it's covered by the shield so opening that little
> > > door shows just the shiled. If anyone knows how they should be please
> > > let me know. Something I did find was the power supply has a white
> > > connector that plugs into a board with the fuse and it was some pulled
> > > out from one side but not all the way. Actually don't know if I pulled
> > > it out when I opened it or not. Btw the 1A fuse is good. Everything
> > > looks good. Don't see any popped/leaking caps or broken solder joints,
> > > but I'll try it again and share what I find.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 03:26:44 PM EST, John R. Hogerhuis
> > > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 11:59 AM Greg Swallow <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> > > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>> wrote:
>
> >
> > >
> > > Oh my. Checked for cover and assumed DIP under it as the TPDD1 I
> > > once had. Opened the TPPD2 lid to expose bright shiney shield. No
> > > DIP switches. Never had to change anything so never opened it
> before
> > > now.
> > >
> > >
> > > And my recollection is that means short of somehow populating the DIP
> > > (which may or may not work) you're locked at 19200bps on the
> TPDD-2. The
> > > TPDD-1 is actually a rebadged Brother FB-100. The FB-100 has the dip
> > > switches, but defaults to 9600bps which the Brother Knitting machine
> > > devices are locked to. So although TPDD-1's can be used with Brother
> > > Knitting Machines, the TPDD-2 cannot.
> > >
> > > -- John.
> >
> >
> > --
> > bkw
> >
> >
>
> --
> bkw
>
--
bkw
