Hi Eric, *, On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 2:01 PM, eric b <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Le 30 juin 08 à 13:08, Christian Lohmaier a écrit : > [...] > No, that's not my idea, but just a fact: people (not me) believe Maho's > builds are "releases". Here is the problem.
That might indeed the problem. But your solution is wrong. Not providing milestone builds surely is not a solution to a communication problem. > Read (in the thread) my answer to Philipp, where I wrote "We all agree the > only reason to provide such milestones is for QA. " Ok, so we're clear on that. > [...] but the fact is, people who are not aware of QA are > downloading them. So: Fix that! Make it clear to people that the builds are for QA/testing only. Again: Not providing builds is not a solution to that problem. > I think Jason mails is a good summary of what I think. But he doesn't mention the root cause either: Why do people think that the builds are releases. Obviously linux and windows users have no problem in understanding that Pavel builds are snapshots/testing builds. Are Mac users more stupid that linux/windows users? I don't think so. >> He did never announce them to "users", he announces availability of >> the builds on developer lists. >> So everyone who downloads the builds should know that those are only >> snapshots, not "releases". > > The reality is different. Here is the problem. Why do (in your opinion) people think that the builds are "releases" (i.e. ready for personal use as opposed to testing only/use at your own risk)? >>> So, I ask to find a solution, to prevent such issues in the future. >> >> What issue? That stupid users download non-released software? > > "That stupid users downloading non-released software " as you wrote, will > propagate a bad image of the mac port. > > And we don't need that at all. Well, the feedback I notice from the german project's lists, form IRC that people rather are impressed by the progress of the port than complain about a quirk here or there. Maybe that is because in german-lang the communication is clear about those snapshots, maybe because the users who give feedback already use OOo for some time and few new users try the snapshots (maybe again because people know that those are snapshots). And now comes a "weired" theory: Maybe people download the snapshots, because there just are too few "official" testing-releases? The port makes so much progress, that a snapshot that is a couple of months old just doesn't reflect the current status. I go further: Such an old status can even be worse than a crash in a newer version, when the rest of the system feels snappier, feels more integrated/more impressive. >> Then >> yes: Do something about it. > > Indeed: that's why I proposed to not provide all the milestones. And I (and others say): Buying a louder horn or driving at low speed will not fix your breaks. > [...] >> It is true that some builds have problems. These faults are a problem with >> QA. (of the cws that are about to be integrated, or just because the >> milestones/the combination of the cws >> is not tested as well as it should). >> This is not Maho's fault as QA is not his job. > > Just about the job, isn't it Maho who does manage QA ? of course everywhere I wrote "Maho doesn't do QA" or "Maho's job is not QA" I was refering to his status against the build he provides. He is not responsible for doing Mac-Teams's QA work, he is not responsible for testing every build he provides. > [...] >> He spends his time and ressources on doing builds, not development, not >> QA. > > As QA lead, this is not the best example :-) being QA-lead doesn't mean one has to do QA on everything himself (more the contrary, do the administrative stuff, give guidance, but not do the QA itself) >>[...] > Sure but when a bug leading to instant and random crashes is well known, and > needs time before the fix to be integrated, it sounds reasonable to stop > providing public milestones in meantime, at least until the fix has been > integrated. Might be true, but then just ask Maho to not provide builds until them, ask him to add a big, fat disclaimer, or ask him to include the patch in his builds. Don't ask him to generally not provide builds. >> That's why it is even more important that people do find those bugs. > > That's what we did: I announced the crashes on IRC before WWDC. And there a > bit after .. and just now, some people seems to discover the issue. Announcing on IRC doesn't help making Maho aware of the problem. >> It also shows that communication of the Mac port could be better: Why >> didn't the users downloading those build knew about those issues >> already? > > Cannot be bad. > >> This is not Maho's fault as he doesn't do any of it. He doesn't act as a >> developer working on the code, he is not involved in cws process, >> does not do QA, doesn't do marketing/advertise his builds to endusers. > > Warning : troll inside ;-) the smiley doesn't make it better when you accuse someone of being a troll. Especially if the message of the words one is accused for should be clear from the context. >> But he also wrote before: He doesn't follow development and doesn't want >> to go through the mail-archives himself. > > This is not normal, and I contest here : when one has the responsability of > doing public builds, the minimal requirement is to keep an eye upstream. Again: Milestones are meant to not introduce any breakers. If we cannot rely on that rule, then the whole cws process, the whole organization of development can be thrown away. >> You cannot tell a builder that a fix is a must-have, if the developers >> didn't think it was worth fixing it in a cws as fast as possible) > > The point is a builder must have an eye on what happens upstream, and be > able to hear the warnings we send. If "having an eye" means having to go through mailinglists, being active on IRC 24/7 just to get one message that there is a problem: Surely not. The way in OOo is: File an issue, put him on cc. Or write a mail and cc him in that mail. He has stressed multiple times that he is not active in porting efforts on the Mac. He is just a provider of builds. So why should someone not interested in the porting itself monitor a mailinglist and IRC-Channels related to that port? There is no reason for that. ciao Christian --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
