Hey Jerry and all, None of this is that simple! But even in this short thread, I think we can all appreciate the difficulties the folks in Washington are having trying to figure this out.
Ward 11/19/02 3:02 PM, "Jerry Yeager" <jerry at browseryshop.com> wrote: > If it were only that simple Ward. It is not. > > Uh folks keep in mind most of the CIA's budget is classified. The public > part that is available is for things like paper clips, etc. It will not > take long before the $200 million that we know about goes to the paper > clip budget and then who knows where the part we are not told about > (it's "classified") goes? > > This type of information should not be in the hands of the government. > Our government has shown that it will abuse the information it already > collects (employees at the IRS use tax return information for their own > gain, etc. there are many mis-uses on record that can be listed) > regardless of which major party is in office. I find it very odd that > right now the only folks who seem to be trying the protect American > ideals and citizens is the CIA (folks we hire to spy on others). > > Have you forgotten that the Nazi party began collecting this type of > information about citizens before they began doing what they did? > > The needs of the many are for the freedoms that we have had. The needs > ot the few are to control those freedoms so that they can stay in power. > I am very sure that the folks that put the list of freedoms together for > us knew what they were doing. After all, they got to see the horror of a > prolonged war on AMERICAN soil first hand. Was it not that very gang > that said something along the lines of "those that would trade freedom > for security deserve neither". I think they fully understood what is at > stake here. > > Giving the government this power will not protect us more. (As the NRA > likes to say, 'we already have existing laws that deal with this, why do > we need more?'). All this will do is open a new threat to us, this one > from within. > > > Jerry > > On Tuesday, November 19, 2002, at 02:18 PM, Ward Oldham wrote: > >> Well, having a history on this listserve of being potentially the most >> offensive when it comes to political issues, I should just shut >> up . . . But >> I can't! >> >> I cherish my privacy more than the average bear. I don't want anybody >> reading my mail, email, knowing my finances, seeing my tax return. When >> people ask how much I make because they need the info. for their >> application >> or survey, I tell them it's none of their business! >> >> With that said, we probably all recognize that our world will never be >> the >> same. We haven't had a threat in our community, yet. Because of that, >> there >> will be many folks out there who are against any change at all because >> it >> infringes upon their constitutional rights. I feel the same way. The >> bottom line is it hasn't hit close enough to home yet for us to feel the >> sting and why change the rules if we haven't been hurt. >> >> I always think back to an old Star Trek movie where Spock is dying >> because >> he sacrificed himself to save the ship and the crew. It depicted the >> philosophy "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." >> >> The time may be growing near when we have to be willing to sacrifice a >> little of our privacy in an effort to prevent potential harm that may >> affect >> many others than just ourselves. >> >> Ward Oldham >> >> >> >> On 11/19/02 12:00 PM, "David Dudine" <ddudine at psci.net> wrote: >> >>> Dear Group, >>> >>> Lee has given me permission to post this from conservative William >>> Safire. >>> >>> If you do not want the government watching your internet activity and >>> reading your email, you should contact your Senators IMMEDIATELY and >>> voice >>> your opposition. It is being rammed through by Bush as you read this. >>> >>> David Dudine >>> >>> .......................... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> New York Times, November 14, 2002: Opinion >>> >>> You Are a Suspect >>> >>> By WILLIAM SAFIRE >>> >>> >>> WASHINGTON ? If the Homeland Security Act is not amended before >>> passage, >>> here is what will happen to you: >>> >>> Every purchase you make with a credit card, every magazine >>> subscription you >>> buy and medical prescription you fill, every Web site you visit and >>> e-mail >>> you send or receive, every academic grade you receive, every bank >>> deposit >>> you make, every trip you book and every event you attend ? all these >>> transactions and communications will go into what the Defense >>> Department >>> describes as "a virtual, centralized grand database." >>> >>> To this computerized dossier on your private life from commercial >>> sources, >>> add every piece of information that government has about you ? passport >>> application, driver's license and bridge toll records, judicial and >>> divorce >>> records, complaints from nosy neighbors to the F.B.I., your lifetime >>> paper >>> trail plus the latest hidden camera surveillance ? and you have the >>> supersnoop's dream: a "Total Information Awareness" about every U.S. >>> citizen. >>> >>> This is not some far-out Orwellian scenario. It is what will happen to >>> your >>> personal freedom in the next few weeks if John Poindexter gets the >>> unprecedented power he seeks. >>> >>> Remember Poindexter? Brilliant man, first in his class at the Naval >>> Academy, later earned a doctorate in physics, rose to national security >>> adviser under President Ronald Reagan. He had this brilliant idea of >>> secretly selling missiles to Iran to pay ransom for hostages, and with >>> the >>> illicit proceeds to illegally support contras in Nicaragua. >>> >>> A jury convicted Poindexter in 1990 on five felony counts of misleading >>> Congress and making false statements, but an appeals court overturned >>> the >>> verdict because Congress had given him immunity for his testimony. He >>> famously asserted, "The buck stops here," arguing that the White House >>> staff, and not the president, was responsible for fateful decisions >>> that >>> might prove embarrassing. >>> >>> This ring-knocking master of deceit is back again with a plan even more >>> scandalous than Iran-contra. He heads the "Information Awareness >>> Office" in >>> the otherwise excellent Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, >>> which >>> spawned the Internet and stealth aircraft technology. Poindexter is now >>> realizing his 20-year dream: getting the "data-mining" power to snoop >>> on >>> every public and private act of every American. >>> >>> Even the hastily passed U.S.A. Patriot Act, which widened the scope of >>> the >>> Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and weakened 15 privacy laws, >>> raised >>> requirements for the government to report secret eavesdropping to >>> Congress >>> and the courts. But Poindexter's assault on individual privacy rides >>> roughshod over such oversight. >>> >>> He is determined to break down the wall between commercial snooping and >>> secret government intrusion. The disgraced admiral dismisses such >>> necessary >>> differentiation as bureaucratic "stovepiping." And he has been given a >>> $200 >>> million budget to create computer dossiers on 300 million Americans. >>> >>> When George W. Bush was running for president, he stood foursquare in >>> defense of each person's medical, financial and communications >>> privacy. But >>> Poindexter, whose contempt for the restraints of oversight drew the >>> Reagan >>> administration into its most serious blunder, is still operating on the >>> presumption that on such a sweeping theft of privacy rights, the buck >>> ends >>> with him and not with the president. >>> >>> This time, however, he has been seizing power in the open. In the past >>> week >>> John Markoff of The Times, followed by Robert O'Harrow of The >>> Washington >>> Post, have revealed the extent of Poindexter's operation, but >>> editorialists >>> have not grasped its undermining of the Freedom of Information Act. >>> >>> Political awareness can overcome "Total Information Awareness," the >>> combined force of commercial and government snooping. In a similar >>> overreach, Attorney General Ashcroft tried his Terrorism Information >>> and >>> Prevention System (TIPS), but public outrage at the use of gossips and >>> postal workers as snoops caused the House to shoot it down. The Senate >>> should now do the same to this other exploitation of fear. >>> >>> The Latin motto over Poindexter"s new Pentagon office reads "Scientia >>> Est >>> Potentia" ? "knowledge is power." Exactly: the government's infinite >>> knowledge about you is its power over you. "We're just as concerned as >>> the >>> next person with protecting privacy," this brilliant mind blandly >>> assured >>> The Post. A jury found he spoke falsely before. >>> >>> .???`?.? ><((((?> .???`?.??.???`?.? <?))))>< ,.???`?.?.???`?.? ><((((?> >>> ?.???`?..???`?.? ><((((?> .???`?.??.???`?.?.?.?.???`?.? ><((((?> >>> .???`?.??.???`?.? <?))))>< .???`?.?.???`?.? ><((((?> ?.???`?..???`?.? >>> >>> --------------------------------------------- >>> Introducing NetZero Long Distance >>> 1st month Free! >>> Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The next meeting of the Louisville Computer Society will be November 26 >>> For more information, see <http://www.aye.net/~lcs>. A calendar of >>> activities is at <http://www.calsnet.net/macusers>. >>> >> >> >> The next meeting of the Louisville Computer Society will be November 26 >> For more information, see <http://www.aye.net/~lcs>. A calendar of >> activities is at <http://www.calsnet.net/macusers>. >> >> >> >> > > > The next meeting of the Louisville Computer Society will be November 26 > For more information, see <http://www.aye.net/~lcs>. A calendar of > activities is at <http://www.calsnet.net/macusers>. > The next meeting of the Louisville Computer Society will be November 26 For more information, see <http://www.aye.net/~lcs>. A calendar of activities is at <http://www.calsnet.net/macusers>.
