I am surprised to hear Laurent has left Apple. I don't know what motivated the change, but I am sure that he is working on something great. Good luck Laurent!!!
While I have a lot of faith in the open source community and think growing a larger pool of contributors is critical for the long-term viability of macruby, the libauto issue is a simple example of how internal decisions at Apple can have profound effects on macruby's future. That worries me. Without anyone promoting macruby from inside Apple, they can shut compatibility with x-code off with an update, add months of work to remove libauto-dependency because they decide to deprecate GC or otherwise alter the programming universe in some unforeseen way. Since Apple is an unapologetic, iron-curtain of secrecy, with a propensity to stop short and change direction (remember when it seemed like macruby would be on iOS?), I can only imagine how many hacker years the macruby community will burn while trying to hit an ever-moving target. Apple, think different--don't be evil! --Tim On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 9:02 PM, <macruby-devel-requ...@lists.macosforge.org>wrote: > Send MacRuby-devel mailing list submissions to > macruby-devel@lists.macosforge.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.macosforge.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/macruby-devel > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > macruby-devel-requ...@lists.macosforge.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > macruby-devel-ow...@lists.macosforge.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of MacRuby-devel digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Re The Future of MacRuby (Jordan K. Hubbard) > 2. Re: The future of MacRuby (Chong Francis) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 17:45:48 -0700 > From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <j...@apple.com> > To: "MacRuby development discussions." > <macruby-devel@lists.macosforge.org> > Subject: Re: [MacRuby-devel] Re The Future of MacRuby > Message-ID: <f0b5203e-88f8-4897-a68b-df292daf4...@apple.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > On Apr 5, 2012, at 3:34 PM, Dan Farrand <d...@greenrivercomputing.com> > wrote: > > > I am not a a contributor to MacRuby, but I have been interested in using > it. Without Apple sponsorship, I have very little interest in MacRuby. > > I think Matt has already said all that needs to be said on that subject. > There are many application environments, both commercial (like Unity3D) > and open source (like Mono), that have enjoyed a healthy and robust > existence without Apple's help. Apple is a wonderful company that makes > many fine things (and I'm obviously biased), but it would be frankly silly > to suggest or even imagine that no one else is capable of making fine > things on their own. One also need look no further than the MacPorts > project to see one that was started by Apple but became FAR more successful > and motivated once the community became seriously involved with and took > over the development process, so there's a counter-point to your somewhat > pessimistic viewpoint right there. > > I personally wish Matt and anyone who wishes to join him in charting > MacRuby's future course the very best of luck. As he notes, it's already a > fairly stable platform and a lot of good work has already gone into it: > It's hardly starting from scratch with just a few gossamer dreams and > ill-defined notions to hang its future on! You have some great stuff to > start with. > > Even better, it's open source and the doors are therefore open to anyone > who wishes to participate. No hosting situation is perfect, of course, and > should there be any impediments to such participation then I'm sure they > will rapidly resolve themselves given the plethora of alternatives for > hosting the bits, the bug reports, the community discussion portals, and so > on. Those are mere implementation details, however, and it's far more > important that the project have some clearly defined goals and people > willing to drive those goals since, as I can personally attest, the heart > and soul of any open source project is the people involved with it on a day > to day basis! Not the source code. Not where the sources are hosted. The > people. > > There simply has to be some collection of people who constitute an actual > community since it is communities, and the essential need that humans have > for creating them, that binds any project together and leads to its > longer-term success. Individuals themselves may come and go, just as I > left the FreeBSD project after many years of involvement with it, but as > long as there is a strong community of like-minded individuals remaining > then the project will live on and continue to prosper (I like to think that > FreeBSD is far more successful today than it was when I left it). > Focusing on the past merely leads to pointless navel-gazing. Think about > the future you want to create, as Matt says, and you'll be on the right > track. > > > Finally, I also think that integration with Xcode, while certainly not a > bad thing to maintain going forward, should also not be held up as such a > holy grail that it proves an impediment to thinking up new and even more > exciting ways to rapidly prototype applications in an interactive, > interpreted development environment. > > MacRuby is not Objective-C. It can be compiled, and that's great, but it > also lends itself particularly well to Smalltalk-style interactive > development environments that, I believe at least, have been sadly lost in > time as IDEs like Visual Studio and Eclipse rose to prominence and became > the new norm. What about seeing software more as connectable ICs, with > lines and arrows denoting control flow, for example? What about dragging > and dropping stuff from palettes of code templates rather than writing > endless amounts of boilerplate? These are the sorts of concepts that a > project like MacRuby could easily explore, should it choose to do so, > rather than simply trying to clone or track existing development metaphors. > > The Rails developers certainly proved the notion, and proved it with > rather spectacular success, that you could start with a flexible and easily > learned language like Ruby and then create a de-facto DSL on top of it, > making things that were formerly somewhat complex almost absurdly simple. > Whether you like Rails or hate it, you cannot argue the fact that this > essential idea struck a strongly responsive chord with a lot of web > developers, so why not seek to create something similar for app developers? > Both individually and collectively, the readers of this list are in > charge of where MacRuby goes next. If you like the vision that Matt is > proposing, by all means follow him. If you don't, github also supports any > number of possible forks, the word "fork" no longer having the somewhat > pejorative meaning it once had, either, but rather representing the > opportunity for one or more individuals to demonstrate another possible > vision of the future the old fashioned way - by creat > ing it! > > - Jordan > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.macosforge.org/pipermail/macruby-devel/attachments/20120405/8b685d20/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 12:02:30 +0800 > From: Chong Francis <fran...@ignition.hk> > To: "MacRuby development discussions." > <macruby-devel@lists.macosforge.org> > Subject: Re: [MacRuby-devel] The future of MacRuby > Message-ID: <f1865a0e-f52d-466e-be74-ecc255aaf...@ignition.hk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="big5" > > Thank you for your update. It's sad that Apple seems abandon the MacRuby > project, but this is also a chance to bring MacRuby closer to what we (as > developers and users) need instead of what Apple want. > > I certainly agree that removing libauto is a primary goal, as OSX and iOS > are both going to a place with no GC. I afraid my C/C++ skills is not quite > helpful on developing core MacRuby, but i would definitely like to help on > wrapping API, integration and documentation. > > Francis > > Matt Aimonetti ? 2012?4?6? ??6:06 ??? > > > Many of you have been wondering what is going on with the MacRuby > project given the lack of up-to-date releases and overall communication. > > I feel we owe you some explanation. > > > > As a lot of you have noticed, our de-facto project leader Laurent > Sansonetti has been M.I.A since October 2011, his last post to this mailing > list being > > > http://lists.macosforge.org/pipermail/macruby-devel/2011-October/008168.htmlannouncing > MacRuby 0.11 really soon. > > His last commit was a change of license back in October: > https://github.com/MacRuby/MacRuby/commit/ac2a7a8e678d19e44d3c64a9508a8370d082dca2 > > > > Laurent is fine. As described on his twitter http://twitter.com/lrz and > LinkedIn http://www.linkedin.com/in/sansonetti accounts, Laurent is no > longer with Apple and is clearly also no longer directly involved with the > MacRuby project on a day-to-day basis. > > Laurent is currently busy with another project and and hopes to someday > be able to contribute to the MacRuby project again. > > > > While no one on this list can speak for Apple, and Apple as a company > does not tend to comment on its future plans or intentions, I think it's > reasonable to imagine that Apple would be more than happy to have the > MacRuby project decide for itself what its destiny is and how to achieve > it. If they did not want the community to be involved or drive such a > process, they would not have released MacRuby as open source or created the > project infrastructure to facilitate it. It is time for us to stop > looking to Apple to provide guidance, leadership and coding for the > project, in other words, and take on those challenges for ourselves! > MacRuby is already very powerful and comparatively stable as a development > platform, now it's time for us to take things to the next level. > > > > I personally think it will finally allow us to communicate and > collaborate on the actual process of development as it occurs, rather than > the previous practice of simply seeing code appear from some hidden, > internal branch which was driven almost exclusively by a single person > > > > Doing all of this in the open should lead to far more people being > interested in the project, not just as users but as developers and leaders. > No one rushes to fill a position that is occupied by someone else, but now > we have a vacuum to fill, and that can be a good thing in terms of > encouraging more people to step forward. > > > > Here is how I see things and I would love to hear more about what you > guys think. > > MacRuby is a great project, but: > > the target audience & projects aren't clear > > the target platform (OS X) isn't the one we all really want to target > (iOS) > > Cocoa's API is awesome but not user friendly/easy to grasp > > > > What I'd like to suggest is the following: > > > > 1. Define clear goals for MacRuby that we can easily evaluate: > > Focus primarily on making MacRuby the tool to use for quickly > prototyping OS X and iOS applications. > > Remove dependency on libauto so MacRuby can run post Mountain Lion and > on iOS. > > 2. Increase the number of contributors: > > Define areas of contribution: > > implementation itself (mainly requires C, C++ knowledge) > > prototyping focus (templates, wrapper APIs, modules, tools: a full > ecosystem aimed at being more productive) > > documentation (getting started, guides, FAQs, wiki, demos, hacker guides) > > support > > empower contributors: > > move the website to github for easier contribution > > better release process and roadmap > > better process to review pull requests & give commit rights > > 3. Improve communication: > > start an active and official chat room (IRC, campfire like or something > else) > > open discussions about plans for the project and progress made > > better collaboration with other Ruby implementation teams (Rubinius, > JRuby, MagLev and of course Matz/C Ruby) > > > > Let's not forget that MacRuby is and will remain a free Open Source > project and that means we need your help and support. > > Without you, this project doesn't mean much so please voice your opinion > and if you decide to do so, become an active participant to MacRuby's > success. > > > > I would like to thank Apple for their historical support and Laurent for > starting this project and all his work so far. Without those contributions, > MacRuby would never have existed and the project will more than welcome any > future participation by either Apple or Laurent. > > At the same time, I don't think the future of this project can or should > rest on the shoulders of a single corporate entity, or that of a single > individual. That does not encourage the kind of broad participation, or > the kind of overall longevity (in the form of future generations of > contributors) that Open Source projects really need to survive over the > long term. > > Finally, I'd like to make clear that I see myself more in a role of a > facilitator than a technical leader on the order of what Laurent was. This > role has been left vacant for more than 6 months now and needs to be filled > by a group of people with greater technical skills than mine. Additional > contributors are therefore more than welcome to join the team, and their > support will be as much appreciated as it is needed. > > > > Finally, in addition to the already numerous great MacRuby contributors > and soon to become contributors, Evan Phoenix (Rubinius) agreed to act as > an advisor for the project. > > > > So, MacRuby community what do you think? > > > > > > > > > > - Matt > > _______________________________________________ > > MacRuby-devel mailing list > > MacRuby-devel@lists.macosforge.org > > http://lists.macosforge.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/macruby-devel > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.macosforge.org/pipermail/macruby-devel/attachments/20120406/bacc2a8f/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > MacRuby-devel mailing list > MacRuby-devel@lists.macosforge.org > http://lists.macosforge.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/macruby-devel > > > End of MacRuby-devel Digest, Vol 50, Issue 8 > ******************************************** >
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