this was on my terminal Dionipher — bash — 80×24 On 18 Feb 2015, at 06:19 pm, Georgina Joyce <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hello, > > I haven’t been following this thread but I’m sure the terminal commands work. > So move VO to the end simply press ctrl + e you can use ctrl + a for the > beginning etc. Just tried it then used VO left arrow to read the file > extension then again to read filename. > > Regards. > > Gena > > >> On 18 Feb 2015, at 14:46, Dionipher Presas Herrera <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> i sorry to interrupt you with this topic, i just wonder how you could edit >> the terminal, since i posted some commands there for viewing hidden folders >> and pasted again a command to hide the folders back. >> On 17 Feb 2015, at 09:37 am, Barry Hadder <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Sean, >>> >>> I believe we were on the same page. I don’t think that you read my entire >>> post however. I refer to this: >>> >>> As far as reviewing output written to the console, you can move vo to the >>> line above the one you want to review than vo-right will put you at the >>> beginning of the line in question. You can then review it with >>> vo-right/left or vo-shift-right/left. >>> >>> I didn’t know exactly what you were talking about so I just covered all of >>> the bases. >>> When you move vo up a line in the console, it is all ready at the end of >>> the line because it scanned through it real quick so it could read it back. >>> All you have to do to read the file is vo-left. So, I’m not understanding >>> way you feel you need an end of line command for vo. I should also point >>> out that it might be more productive to pipe ls through less and hitting / >>> to search for a particular file if there are hundreds. >>> Your wording was to the affect that one could not move vo to the beginning >>> or end of a line. That was not correct. I think that more care should be >>> taken when reporting problems to Apple. If you feel that the method I >>> suggested above to move to the beginning is not workable, than we are just >>> going to have to disagree and I’m not interested in arguing over that. Yu >>> have to decide what system you feel more comfortable and productive with. >>> If you are saying that you feel that Voiceover should have a command to >>> move to the ends of the line, then that is your opinion. I personally >>> think that is a silly standard but that’s find to report to Apple as far as >>> I’m concerned as that is very different than claiming that vo can’t move to >>> the ends of the lines. However, Voiceover doesn’t work under that >>> premise. >>> >>> On Feb 16, 2015, at 11:30 PM, Sean Murphy <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Barry, >>> >>> I agree we are not on the same page. Below are the steps to reproduce the >>> issue I have outlined. >>> >>> 1. Open terminal and interact with the text area of the terminal. >>> 2. Issue a ls -l on a directory with a lot of files/directories. Lets say >>> over 25 files. >>> 3. Now use vo-up arrow to move up the screen. Keep going for at least 5 to >>> 6 lines. >>> 7. You want to go to the end of the line so you can read out the file name. >>> There is no keystroke to do this. Since VO cannot move you to the end of >>> the current line. You have to either move by word towards the right or move >>> down the line and move left by word. >>> >>> When I refer to the history buffer, I was not referring to the command >>> history buffer. But the history of the previous information being >>> displayed. Only way to review this information is via the VO cursor. I >>> review a lot of log outputs from devices that I connect to via the >>> terminal. Thus the information scrolls off the screen and you can use the >>> VO cursor to move to the beginning of a output that shows over 100 lines of >>> info. It would be really nice if you could jump to the beginning and end of >>> the current line that you are currently reviewing when you have moved up >>> the screen using the VO cursor. You do not want to move the insert cursor >>> when you do this. It is like a pre-view of past displayed information. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 16 Feb 2015, at 10:16 am, Barry Hadder <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> I’m not sure what you’re having trouble with here. It appears that we are >>>> not communicating. >>>> As I pointed out, the vo cursor tracks with the insertion point. >>>> There is no specific vo command to move vo to the beginning of a line. >>>> You move the insertion point and if vo doesn’t track, then you rout vo to >>>> it. >>>> I explained how to read the output console where there isn’t an insertion >>>> point. It will put vo at the beginning of a line for review. >>>> >>>> You scrole through the command history buffer with up and doun arrows. >>>> >>>> On Feb 15, 2015, at 4:31 PM, Sean Murphy <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Barry >>>> >>>> I am not talking about moving the insert cursor rather the Voice-Over >>>> cursor to the beginning of the line. CTRL A and like commands only move >>>> the insert cursor there is no command to move the Voice-Over cursor to >>>> the beginning of the line when you are reveiwing the history buffer. >>>> >>>> My experience is the part >>>> >>>> On 16 Feb 2015, at 2:33 am, Barry Hadder <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> What do you mean by saying you can’t move to the beginning of a line in >>>>> terminal? >>>>> On the command line or in a text editor such as emacs , do the following: >>>>> control-a moves the insertion to the beginning of a line and Voiceover >>>>> tracks. >>>>> control-e moves to the end of a line. >>>>> option-f move forward a word. >>>>> option-b moves backwards a word. >>>>> Note that you need to go into terminal options/profiles/keyboard and make >>>>> sure the use option as meta key is checked to some of those commands to >>>>> work. >>>>> >>>>> As far as reviewing output written to the console, you can move vo to the >>>>> line above the one you want to review than vo-right will put you at the >>>>> begining of the line in question. You can then review it with >>>>> vo-right/left or vo-shift-right/left. >>>>> >>>>> On Feb 15, 2015, at 12:21 AM, Sean Murphy <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> David and all, >>>>> >>>>> I agree with your approach. As a user of technology for over 30 years >>>>> now. There is no one solution. If you lock yourself into one solution, >>>>> then you will find down the track at some time your lack of knowledge and >>>>> expertise has left you behind requiring a major re-learning. >>>>> >>>>> Is the Mac platform without problems? No. Is it apples fault or the >>>>> vendors fault. Both. If the product has lack of accessibility and comes >>>>> from the Vendor like Microsoft. Then the issue lies in their court. But >>>>> if there is features that could make your life easier on the Mac platform >>>>> then that lies in apples court. Some areas of improvement I would like to >>>>> see and have send to [email protected] are: >>>>> >>>>> Improved access to terminal. As yet, you cannot move to the beginning of >>>>> a line in Terminal. You can go to the top of the window, to the first >>>>> line of the visible text, but not to the beginning of the line you are >>>>> reviewing with VO. This feature would be very useful when reviewing >>>>> information in any program. >>>>> >>>>> The challenge with bugs that are reported is how Apple rank them to be >>>>> fixed. I do not know how much weighting they give to Voice-Over style >>>>> bugs. The other challenge is the period between fixes. If a bug is >>>>> reported and verified on the Mac Platform. It could take years before it >>>>> is fixed. While bugs on Windows screen readers do take a lot shorter >>>>> period of time to get fix. some bugs on both platforms never get fixed >>>>> because they might not be able to validate the bug, to complex, breaks to >>>>> many other features, Product management slates more important features >>>>> to be address and the poor old developer hasn’t got time to address the >>>>> bug, etc. this is the nature of the beast when using a major main stream >>>>> vendor vs small vendors. Normally small vendors are faster to respond to >>>>> issues then larger because of their internal processes and competing >>>>> other priorities in the organisation. >>>>> >>>>> On the iPhone I will admit 8.xx version of iOS is the worst release I >>>>> have seen from Apple. crashes of Voice-Over, Voice-over being stuck on >>>>> elements within Audible and other programs, Voice-over not responding to >>>>> taps, When swiping through a app VO jus to different areas of the app, >>>>> not the next item and so on. Everything I have outlined here has not >>>>> been seen in 7.xx and it is just to much hassle to role back. I have >>>>> reported some of the issues I have found and the response from apple was >>>>> not very encouraging. EG: We have forwarded your issue on to the product >>>>> owner. That means nothing and far as I am concern they have passed on the >>>>> buck to someone else and the issue has gone into a black hole. Their >>>>> customer management could improve greatly. Then I am a customer of them >>>>> and a small one at that. Thus if I walk, it doesn’t hurt them. this is >>>>> the problem when a company is the favour of the year and is growing like >>>>> apple. Microsoft and other large companies when they were on the up >>>>> swing of market growth went through the same problems. So it isn’t >>>>> anything new what I have outlined. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 13 Feb 2015, at 11:31 am, David Griffith <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I too must confess that I am not a braille user on the Mac so cannot >>>>>> comment on how frustrating this is. however there do seem to be a lot >>>>>> of people using Braille happily on the MacVisionaries list so perhaps >>>>>> there is some expertise you can tap into there to get support. Apart >>>>>> from that I agree with all >>>>>> Barry has said. I also agree that there are areas that the experience on >>>>>> the Mac can improve but equally I could compile a much longer list of >>>>>> complaints / disappointments with Windows and the various Screenreaders >>>>>> and Windows OS problems. . . Only today I was experiencing the >>>>>> frustration of Jaw’s inability to accurately copy and paste text to and >>>>>> from ,html content. This is a long standing annoyance at what should >>>>>> be a basic function which has existed for me since Jaws 14 and shows no >>>>>> sign of being resolved in 16. >>>>>> I can work around it by using NVDA but this and other deficiencies >>>>>> definitely exist on Windows. I still prefer the Mac overwhelmingly for >>>>>> many functions, including web browsing. >>>>>> The Mac also provides for free a voice dictation and command interface >>>>>> which for me personally outperforms anything I have bought on the >>>>>> Windows platform, including Dragon Naturally Speaking. >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree that there is a problem with the implementation of advance >>>>>> Office support on the Mac. However this is to a large extent about the >>>>>> lack of depth in the compilation of strategies compared to the >>>>>> information, tutorials and guides available on the Windows side. Apple >>>>>> has relatively little interest in promoting Microsoft Office and will >>>>>> pay lip service only to supporting this format in many cases. This is >>>>>> understandable given the competing nature of their suites. >>>>>> Hopefully there is a lot to look forward to when the allegedly fully >>>>>> Voiceover accessible version of Microsoft Office is released later this >>>>>> year. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am in the fortunate position of having access to Mac and Windows. For >>>>>> some things only Windows will do. For example Safari seems to fall over >>>>>> with my bank web site. Equally there are things I will always if given a >>>>>> preference will do on the Mac side. In general for me as long as it >>>>>> works, I prefer doing things on the Mac now. >>>>>> >>>>>> However I want to advance my capability on all platforms. I try to >>>>>> learn as much as I can about not just Windows and Mac OS, but also iOS >>>>>> and Android. Unfortunately I have never been able to get a Linux/vinux >>>>>> environment working properly otherwise I would be delving into that as >>>>>> well. Some might see this as a geeky approach but my view in the >>>>>> struggle to overcome visual impairment we should, if we can afford it, >>>>>> utilise every useful option open to us. >>>>>> >>>>>> In the spectrum of options available I think both MacOs and iOS have >>>>>> defensible and honourable records. >>>>>> >>>>>> David Griffith >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12 Feb 2015, at 23:29, Barry Hadder <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well, as I don’t use braille, I will not comment to much on that >>>>>>> except just to say that I think it’s a little odd to seemingly not >>>>>>> egknolege the significance of an off the shelf system with braille >>>>>>> support out of the box and not find away to make good use of it. >>>>>>> With that said, there are some problems with some of your assertions >>>>>>> that I feel need to be addrest since nobody else has done so yet. I >>>>>>> Also should point out that it is unclear to me at times whether or not >>>>>>> your points are in reference to braille or speech. So, there may be >>>>>>> some occasional misunderstanding on my part. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1. Third party icons on the status bar are accessible with Voiceover. >>>>>>> Specifically the Dropbox app. Any problems that may occur will be more >>>>>>> to due with the third party developer rather than Apple. I don’t >>>>>>> understand why you said they can’t be accessed with Voiceover. >>>>>>> 2. The idea that there should be some kind of constant indicator that >>>>>>> quicknav is turned on is your opinion. It is not an accessibility >>>>>>> issue. This could be classified as a feature request however. >>>>>>> 3. What do you mean by network stations? I have no idea what button >>>>>>> in finder that you are referring to that connects to all available >>>>>>> network shares at once. I know of no such button nor have I found any >>>>>>> reference to this function in the help documentation. Finding and >>>>>>> connecting to network shares in finder is quite easy to do with >>>>>>> voiceover and if you want OS X to automatically connect to shares on >>>>>>> your network, you can easily set this up in user preferences. So, I >>>>>>> see no accessibility issue here. It’s possible however that I’m not >>>>>>> understanding what you are referring to, but in any event I fail to see >>>>>>> how this one thing could impact the usability of OS X for blind people >>>>>>> to the extent that one would email Tim Cook. >>>>>>> 4. Your subject is quality of osx with voiceover for people with >>>>>>> dissablities. However, I don’t see how iWork compatibility with MS >>>>>>> office has anything to do spasifically with blind people being able to >>>>>>> use OS X. >>>>>>> 5. With regard to manipulating the mouse with vo, there are some valid >>>>>>> concerns that need to be addressed, but emailing Tim Cook is not the >>>>>>> correct way to do that. I think it should also be said that flooding >>>>>>> Apple with invalid complaints will increase the risk that the valid >>>>>>> ones will go unnoticed or be ignored. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Finally, it’s good to hope for and expect new innovations including >>>>>>> ones for disabilities, but it is also necessary to egknolege what has >>>>>>> been done which I think is considerable and to be willing to make good >>>>>>> use of what we have. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Feb 11, 2015, at 4:38 PM, William Windels >>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am writing to you since the progress of the accessibility features >>>>>>> are really pour in the last releases of osx 10.10.2. >>>>>>> The mac is still missing some important features against windows with a >>>>>>> commercial screenreader, and this after more 6 years of voiceover as >>>>>>> built-in screenreader. >>>>>>> Ok, voiceover is still a free, built-in screenreader but on windows , >>>>>>> there are 2 free screenreader for the windows platform that are better >>>>>>> in some cases than voiceover. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Braille is still very basicnin osx: >>>>>>> Some daily problems I discover with voiceover: >>>>>>> I can’t follow courses with only braille output (without speech) during >>>>>>> colleges. >>>>>>> I mean: there is some important information missing on the braille >>>>>>> display that’s only available with speech. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What is missing: >>>>>>>>> 1- no option for word wrapping: this can be useful for fast reading >>>>>>>>> (loudly); >>>>>>>>> 2- no different modes line, structured, speech (like in jaws): >>>>>>>>> specialy structured mode in jaws is configurable, type of controls is >>>>>>>>> shown, interaction-levels could be shown on this way. >>>>>>>>> It’s e.g. very frustrating if you are in a text area and you can read >>>>>>>>> all with the braille-line but you can’t edit or simply move the >>>>>>>>> cursor to any position that is visible on the braille display. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 3- to know if quicknav is on/off before moving isn’t possible also. >>>>>>>>> On this way , it’s very easy to lose your position in a text-area or >>>>>>>>> a window. >>>>>>>>> The quick-nav option has also some bugs in general but is sometimes >>>>>>>>> very useful for navigation (and specially on a macbook). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 4- In some cases, the text that’s in the voiceover cursor is (always) >>>>>>>>> underlineed with dots 7-8. On this way , no other attributes are >>>>>>>>> shown and the cursor isn’t shown. If dots 7,8 are turned off, the >>>>>>>>> cursor isn’t visible at all and capitals aren’t shown also. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 5- When i put the cursor on a letter in a text I delete a .(dot) sign >>>>>>>>> on the left sign of the cursor and voiceover says sometimes something >>>>>>>>> else. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> further braille bugs: >>>>>>> cursor routing on the first sign of the braille-display: the text on >>>>>>> the display is gone; >>>>>>> when composing a message to multiple recipients , while the speech is >>>>>>> saying correctly the contact that has the focus, the braille display >>>>>>> isn’t following. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Further: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some bugs since 10.9 aren’t fixed: >>>>>>> the icons in the statusbar like the third party app dropbox can’t be >>>>>>> accessed with voiceover from there. >>>>>>> The drag and drop-function with voiceover is not improved since the >>>>>>> introduction in osx 10.7 and gives not the same possibilities for >>>>>>> blind users as for sighted users. >>>>>>> The button to mount all external (network)-stations at once in finder >>>>>>> is not accessible with voiceover; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And some different points: >>>>>>> Ibooks was basically accessible with voiceover after one update from >>>>>>> osx 10.9 to osx 10.10. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> iWork’s is mainly accessible but is still missing some important >>>>>>> compatibility options to work together with ms office. >>>>>>> (most of the people that work in a administrative job, use windows with >>>>>>> ms office). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I still love the mac because of some intuïtive features like the >>>>>>> trackpad with voiceover, time-machine, the possibility to maintain the >>>>>>> system as blind user on my own. >>>>>>> But , I don’t know if the newest features for blind users are good and >>>>>>> innovative enough to spend that much money on. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> With so great financial results the last weeks that where announced >>>>>>> from Apple, I should hope that more innovation is coming for people >>>>>>> with disabilities. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Keep on the work that Steve Jobs has started. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>>> William Windels >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Barry Hadder >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> Barry Hadder >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> Barry Hadder >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> Barry Hadder >>> [email protected] >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop 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