Hi Janina,

On 18 Jan 2016, at 22:06, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Well, if you mean the integration of all the tools in an out of the box
> installed product, it's certainly there on Linux for many users. The
> a11y use case has also been demonstrated by small distro knockoffs like
> Vinux.
> 
Sorry, I was specifically talking about the difficulty of using VMWare, as 
illustrated by the difference between using the official and open-VM-tools.

I don’t use the VI-specific distros because they are too out-of-date for my 
liking.

> It's not there, however, at the level that you can head over to Best Buy
> and come with a working Linux desktop system. So, it's always possible
> you will fail over driver issues and the like.
> 
I use Linux in a virtual environment.  Even Mac hardware—which you would hope 
is more readily supported by virtue of being well-known and invariant—is not 
well supported.  Broadcom Wi-Fi, for example, and therefore single-channel 
only.  The only Linux box I have is my quad-core Mac Mini, now being used as my 
home router/NAS.  We need to get to that magical stage where hardware is open, 
so distros can in fact come out of the box without fiddling required.

> Each to their own, of course. But my main machine remains a Linux,
> currently Fedora 23. I turn to my Mac to see how things work elsewhere
> by way of comparison. Ditto for my Windows vm.

I agree, each to their own.  I would love to be able to use Linux as my primary 
OS, primarily to get away from the various vendor playgrounds.  Perhaps I 
should be trying harder, but so far, I’m happiest using Linux on servers and 
exclusively in textmode.  Meantime, I also have a Windows VM.  Perhaps you 
could find a way to run OS X under qemu/KVM or, if it works, VMWare Workstation 
on Linux.

> I will freely admit there are particular niche tasks I can't do on my
> Linux box. But they are few. I 'm perfectly happy with the bulk of what
> I need daily, email, web, etc. And, in case your curious, I still spend
> more time in Speakup than in Orca.
> 
I have a Windows VM for the tiny number of things that OS X cannot do, and 
Linux, for braille.  I don’t want or need a GUI under Linux at all, and 
exclusively use braille.

> Given what I'm seeing by way of a11y API development, I frankly expect
> blink related a11y to actually take the lead. Microsoft have barely
> started implementing an API for UI Automation, but they've declared the
> DOM dead. Look out JAWS. And Apple won't even let you peek at the OSX
> accessibility API--not even if you're a big, stock market listed third
> party vendor.

I’m not prepared to look into my crystal ball.  I have experience with all of 
the platforms and don’t see any particular reason why any of them should “Win”. 
 Apart from ChromeOS, I don’t see any forward progress at all—for ChromeOS, 
things are actually regressing as Google finally updates ChromeVox to take 
advantage of their new APIs, but that should soon right itself.

The Apple accessibility protocols are all documented, but the Objective-C 
runtime isn’t.  So, you’re all right as long as you’re within Apple’s prison 
walls.  Outside, I don’t see any developer venturing to hack at the APIs 
through a non-objective-C language, which means non-Apple toolkits frequently 
aren’t accessible.  But, you could if you wanted to; just reverse-engineer 
(from the Apple-provided sources) the current Objective-C ABIs, and communicate 
with the protocol objects using entirely undocumented, 
likely-to-change-at-any-moment C-based APIs.  I have a note here to detail an 
actual case where this lost us some accessibility to Apple.

Cheers,
Sabahattin

PS: your DMARC policy is causing Google Groups to rewrite your sender address.  
Perhaps dedicate a subdomain for lists.  Also feel free to contact me off-list 
if there is no further Apple-related matter.

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