One thing I like about the Mac is that there are several ways of doing many tasks. For instance, in Safari, I can think of at least 4 and sometimes 5 different ways of getting where you want to go. Different methods work better for different people. On Dec 2, 2009, at 11:42 AM, Kevin Gibbs wrote:
> There's one other aspect of this debate. Regardless of the number of > keystrokes it takes to execute a task, the other consideration, and this is > totally subjective, is how easy it is to remember the keystrokes involved in > executing that action. In other words, how intuitive or "logical" is a > given accessibility solution to a given user. That's where the subjectivity > really comes into play. We all had to learn whatever it is we're > comfortable with today. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John G. Heim [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 1:37 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Economics and the Mac > > > Well, you're all over the place in terms of the debate itself here. Do you > think this is a matter of personal preference or not? If so, you shouldn't > say I'm being unfair. > > Anyway, lets do a test. I really have no idea how this will turn out. Lets > pick a common task we all do practically every day, google something. How > many keystrokes does it take to go from a fresh boot to click through to the > > first match?Say you just turned your computer on, how many keystrokes does > it take to google something like "wikipedia"? > > 1. Launch browser = 3 keystrokes windows,i,enter > 2. Enter URL = 3 keystrokes, control+d, enter > (I'm not counting entering the URL itself) > 3. Enter search term = 2 keystrokes, enter [forms mode], enter (not counting > entering the search term) 4. Find first match = 2 keystrokes, 2 [go to first > h2 heading], 3 [go to > first h3 heading] > 5. Click through on first match = 1 keystroke, enter > > So it takes 11 keystrokes to open a browser, get to google.com,do a search, > and click through to the first match. Note that I'm counting combination > keys as 2 keystrokes. Feel free to count 3 key combinations as just 2. But > if you have to use 2 hands, that's 2 keystrokes. > > Actually, in Windows, there is a quicker way to get to a web site than the > way I've mentioned above. You can press windows+r, enter a URL, and press > enter. That could take the place of steps 1 & 2 and leaves us at 8 > keystrokes besides the ones it takes to enter the URL and the search term. > But that is definately taking advantage of the operating system. I do not > know if there is an equivalent feature in MacOS. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Howell" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 12:34 PM > Subject: Re: Economics and the Mac > > > And that is your opinion as well and I completely disagree with you. > However, you as I are entitled to your opinion and having used both windows > and the Mac on a regular basis, I find that there are many tasks, which are > much easier to perform with VOiceOver than Window-Eyes. I have never used > JAWS and of course at this point I wouldn't bother since I'm not interested > in learning something new since I can do what I need with what I got. > However, with the quick-nav feature of VO, I have found it takes less > keystrokes then before. You can argue that interacting is perhaps one issue > and with a windows=based screen reader that may be true depending on the > screen reader, but at the same time I don't have the multitude of issues > with VO as I do with WE when dealing with MSAA. > It's obvious JAWS is your preference and honestly that's fine. What matters > in the end regardless of whether we agree or not is that you have the tools > to get the job done. That is one point I think we can both agree on. > > On Dec 2, 2009, at 1:23 PM, John G. Heim wrote: > >> No, screen readers can be judged subjectively independent of the OS >> they >> are >> used for. For example, a subjective measurement might be a count of the >> number of keystrokes it takes to complete certain tasks. Also, consistency >> can be a subjective measurment. Does the same keystroke move from one >> input >> field to the next? And finally, you can get an idea of the percentage of >> inaccessible controls in operating system applications. In fact, you could >> even include accessibility of third party applications even if you have to >> download add-ons to make them accessible. After all, who cares where the >> accessibility features come from as long as they work? >> >> Anyway, I'm not necessarily saying that my opinion is right. But your >> contention that its impossible to compare jaws and voiceover is >> incorrect. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Scott Howell" <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 5:19 PM >> Subject: Re: Economics and the Mac >> >> >> John, I think that is a very unfair statement. To say that VoiceOver >> is >> not >> up to the standard set by JAWS is inaccurate. That is like comparing >> windows >> and the Mac OS. Sure, they both are operating systems, but they are very >> different and that holds true with VoiceOver as compared to JAWS, >> Window-Eyes, and any screen reader running on windows or Linux for that >> matter. They are all screen readers, like windows or SL share some >> similarities, but VoiceOver and JAWS for windows are very different. >> Therefore, the supposed standards of JAWS do not apply to VOiceOver and >> therefore renders your statement inaccurate. >> On Dec 1, 2009, at 5:10 PM, John G. Heim wrote: >> >>> Several years ago, Microsoft began working on improvements to >>> narrator that would make it a realistically usable screen reader. But >>> the National Federation of the Blind asked them to stop. The >>> reasoning was that if Microsoft improved narrator, it might drive >>> Freedom Scientific and GW Micro >>> out of business. They thought that narrator would never reach the quality >>> of >>> Jaws and window-eyes yet it might still be good enough to drive those >>> products out of the market. >>> >>> Obviously, that decision was somewhat controversial at the time. I >>> argued that it made no sense to think that narrator could be at once >>> too crummy to be used and at the same time good enough to drive jFS >>> and GWM out of business. I didn't anticipate the development of the >>> other free screen readers, voiceover, nvda, and orca. But certainly, >>> that's another point against the NFB position. >>> >>> On the other hand, I don't think I'd like to switch to voiceover or >>> nvda full-time. They are not quite up to the standard set by jaws >>> yet. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Lynn Schneider" <[email protected]> >>> To: <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 10:54 PM >>> Subject: Re: Economics and the Mac >>> >>> >>> I purchased my first Apple computer about three months ago. I will >>> never forget the feeling of complete surprise and joy at being able >>> to just turn the iMac on and get it talking within minutes. >>> Microsoft is not to blame for not having default Windows access out >>> of the box, blind people are to blame. As Mark said, thinking >>> outside the box can get you into hot water. >>> A few years ago on a blindness-related list, I made the cataclysmic >>> mistake >>> of expressing my wish that some day, windows would be accessible out of >>> the >>> box. You would not believe the hate mail I received from tons of blind >>> people basically saying that I wanted a free lunch, I was ungrateful for >>> all >>> the hard work and research of the screen reader companies, etc. etc. >>> Honestly, it was totally shocking to me that I would get such ire for >>> simply >>> suggesting that we ought to have access to something our sighted peers >>> take >>> for granted without having to pay thousands of dollars extra. But, being >>> on >>> this list and seeing all the other blind switchers out there, I feel at >>> least a tiny bit vindicated, as blind people are starting to see the >>> benefits of universal access. I really think it is the young blind >>> people >>> who are going to demand universal access, at least I hope so. They are >>> the >>> ones who are going to benefit most from being able to buy an iPhone or >>> iPod >>> Touch like their peers and just start using the thing, and they are >>> hopefully going to demand more of that. With chips being so cheap now, >>> there is absolutely no reason why universal access cannot be built right >>> into things. The best thing we can all do is to spread the word far and >>> wide about what Apple has been able to accomplish with their products and >>> make them an example of what can be. >>> >>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 9:27 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>> >>>> I have changed the subject line to more reflect on the discussion at >>>> hand. If Apple can set aside resources to make their Mac computers >>>> universally marketed across the board, there is no reason why >>>> Microsoftshouldn't, (and they definitely have the resources and the >>>> technical expertise throughout the company) to do so. And if it >>>> brings the prices down, and Microsoft does, for example, develop a >>>> mechanism by which Windows can be installed out of the box without >>>> sighted assistance, companies such as Freedom Scientific would then >>>> be forced to either go with the trend; otherwise, they would lose >>>> their economic dolars; after all, isn't that what competition for >>>> tax dollars and marketshare is all about? In my humble opinion, for >>>> what it's worth, the only reason Freedom Scientific survives in the >>>> market is because they have contracted with some state agencies and >>>> government entities, and we bare the brunt of the expense >>>> ineirectly. I paid less for my car than I have for braille displays >>>> costing $8000 to $12,000 dollars at a time. In Alaska, for example, >>>> the biggest majority of vision loss occurs in the elderly population >>>> and baby boomers who are about to reach retirement age. We have no >>>> school for the blind in Alaska; therefore, if parents want to send >>>> their blind kids off to a residential school, they would have to >>>> send them Stateside, which costs the state thousands of dollars >>>> which they could probably find other revenues to use elsewhere.There >>>> are a handful of us who are blind and visually-impaired Macusers, >>>> but that numberis increasing, as the word about VoiceOver gets out. >>>> Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:21 PM, carlene knight wrote: >>>> >>>> I know that the companies take huge advantage of the fact that they >>>> have a guaranteed nitch and can charge whatever they want. That's >>>> why I will not upgrade my JAWS SMA. For one thing I don't need it >>>> and secondly, I don't want to pay that kind of price for an upgrade, >>>> but FS knows that they can get away with it because of a guaranteed >>>> market. I'm not saying things could not change, but simply stating >>>> that you can't get JAWS or a Braille display from a home >>>> electronics ore software store, and I wouldn't expect to happen any >>>> time soon if ever. In their eyes, why should They bother as they >>>> won't sell enough of them to make it worth their while. There is a >>>> cell phone put out by Capital Accessibility in Europe. I've seen >>>> one and it's no big deal. The speech is great, but there is no >>>> camera, digital screen, or anything that might ad a bit of a price >>>> to the phone. It's built like a brick, but it is over $500 and >>>> though the speech is clear, it's very robotic. Tell me that's not >>>> ridiculous? I don't know that agencies are responsible for this >>>> one, but the phone is so tailored to our needs that somebody will >>>> buy it. Not me. Granted, if more people were learning braille and >>>> speech software as they were dealing with macular degeneration, and >>>> there was a big enough demand for it, things might come down a bit. >>>> That's great about the scanner. I'd better stop typing now as I am >>>> misspelling more things than I am typing correctly and am about to >>>> throw this keyboard, though it's not at fault. >>>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>> >>>>> With all due respect, that argument has been used time and time >>>>> again. To that, I say this: the best example of a product that has >>>>> gone down in price because of the acceptance of it by the sighted >>>>> community, is the optical scanner, which was originally intended >>>>> for use by the blind for scanning newspapers, magazines, and othr >>>>> documents in their computers or reading machines. Back then, you >>>>> had to pay thousands of dolars for the machine, and ys, state >>>>> agencies bought it for us, if we were lucky. Now, one can buy a >>>>> scanner and to a certain extent, software for scanning pictures, >>>>> text, and other document forms into one's PC, at a fraction of the >>>>> cost it was in the 1970's. The point here is that it found a >>>>> marketable niche among the sighted community, and once they were >>>>> mass-produced, prices started coming down and people could afford >>>>> said scanners. While braille displays are another issue, there are >>>>> companies who are working to make even displays more affordable and >>>>> accepting to the universal design market. In the 1980's, Apple >>>>> tried an experiment, using an ordinary, dot matrix printer, to >>>>> produce braille. It wasn't the best quality braille, but it was an >>>>> experiment that, had it been popular, might have flown. Richie >>>>> Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 11:50 AM, carlene knight wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Unfortunately you have to be realistic though. I agree with you in >>>>> a sense, but going into a store and buying JAWS or Window Eyes off >>>>> of the shelf? That would be nice? that's one reason I like the >>>>> Mac and accessories. The people in the Mac and Apple stores will >>>>> likely not be trained for extensive use with Vo, but they should be >>>>> able to make sure it works. Try going into a Best Buy and asking >>>>> them if JFW works. We probably make up less than 10% of the >>>>> population so it isn't going to happen. It would still be >>>>> expensive, and that's why I needed the agency to buy it for me. >>>>> Again don't get me wrong, in a perfect world that might happen, but >>>>> we all know the world is far from perfect. I'm not trying to >>>>> defend anybody necessarily, and I don't consider myself dependent >>>>> because I need assistance from them. I got my own jobs, take care >>>>> of myself, go where I need to go etc. A good organization helps >>>>> people become independent. I agree that whenever possible, we >>>>> should do for ourselves and not be too dependent on anybody, >>>>> agencies included. >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> And for this reason, I feel that many state agencies, (Alaska's, >>>>>> being one of them)will be cutting back services, in favor of other >>>>>> things and as Mark so eloquently pointed out, the elderly, the >>>>>> poor, and the disabled, will be hurt first. I know thisis a >>>>>> different subject line from what was originally intended, and I >>>>>> apologize for that, but I will say one more thing on this, and >>>>>> that is that I'm in favor of universal design so that blind people >>>>>> can walk into any store and purchase off-the-shelf software and >>>>>> get it working and we not be forced to be co-dependent on state >>>>>> agencies to purchase our stuff. I guess, in a way, I'm against >>>>>> state agencies for the reasons I stated above. Richie Gardenhire, >>>>>> Anchorage, Alaska. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:32 AM, carlene knight wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Mark: >>>>>> >>>>>> I certainly don't hold a grudge as everybody is entitled to their >>>>>> opinion. However, if it weren't for the Commission for the blind >>>>>> here in Oregon, there is no way that I could perform the job I was >>>>>> hired for. I had to have a programmer write JAWS scripts so that >>>>>> I could get to the buttons, read the drop down boxes that just had >>>>>> graphics for names, etc. I couldn't have afforded the thousands of >>>>>> dollars that >>>>>> has costed. He is working as we speak since the company I work for >>>>>> has changed software and everything we had done in the past regarding >>>>>> the original software is now null and void. I could have not >>>>>> afforded >>>>>> a Braille display at about 12,000 dollars. I can say with certainty >>>>>> that there are few if any companies that would provide any of these >>>>>> services. Unfortunately many government funded agencies, including >>>>>> the Oregon Commission for the blind do know little about Mac >>>>>> accessibility as they have contracts with certain vendors, and, face >>>>>> it,whether we like it or not, a majority of companies still use >>>>>> Windows based software. My husband and I both decided on our own to >>>>>> try the Mac, and though I've had some problems, I'm glad I did. I've >>>>>> learned it without an instructor. We nearly lost our Commission last >>>>>> summer so when I hear people talking about how we shouldn't have >>>>>> government agencies such as this, I have to disagree though they do >>>>>> have their problems. Yes, some people do rely on others to much, but >>>>>> not all of us do. Like you, I grew up in the public school system in >>>>>> a rural area. I was born blind also. I'll get off my soap box now. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:51 AM, Mark BurningHawk Baxter wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> You, and I to a lesser extent, and others are the exception. I >>>>>>> was born blind, didn't go to any institutions for the blind, was >>>>>>> raised as an only child, mostly in rural Vermont with minimal >>>>>>> help from state agencies. Graduated from Dartmouth when I was >>>>>>> 20, again with minimal >>>>>>> if any help from agencies--didn't have my first experience with any >>>>>>> agencies or institutions for the blind until I was 24, when the >>>>>>> Carroll Center was offering a medical transcription course and I >>>>>>> needed another, safer place to be. They kicked me out of their >>>>>>> dorm, >>>>>>> making me homeless, after six weeks there. Rehab flatly refused to >>>>>>> support me and my music career in any way, and pressured me to go to >>>>>>> the Carroll Center in the first place, then pressured me to get >>>>>>> therapy and reform my ways when they made me homeless. I only >>>>>>> started >>>>>>> cautiously learning how to deal with the agencies in 2007, when it >>>>>>> became clear that my failing hearing was going to force me out of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> transcription career I'd had for 13+ years. I learned Jaws and >>>>>>> Windows essentially by myself, as I've always been good with tech. >>>>>>> Even now, while I may have learned a little about how to get along >>>>>>> with the agencies and get what I need, it's a very uneasy truce at >>>>>>> best./ I hope to be starting a job at another institution for the >>>>>>> blind soon, but this time as a trainer, not a student, which >>>>>>> hopefully >>>>>>> will turn out better. You can see why I advocate for the abolition >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> such systems. They do not foster independence of thinking, and tend >>>>>>> to punish outside-the-box people, in my experience. I do realize >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> people blinded later in life may not adapt as fully as those born >>>>>>> blind; I'm learning that as I lose my hearing, so I have the >>>>>>> privilege >>>>>>> of seeing both sides of the coin, but think about what that >>>>>>> implies-- >>>>>>> that the pressure on those whose world has already been blasted by >>>>>>> losing their sight will essentially become putty in the hands of >>>>>>> high- >>>>>>> pressure agencies who are set in their ways. The system seems to >>>>>>> punish at both ends--if you're too independent, you're pressured to >>>>>>> conform; if you're new to blindness, you're taught not to think for >>>>>>> yourself. Hell, I didn't even do mobility orienting stuff until >>>>>>> last >>>>>>> year, when Rehab here in CA suggested I ry it, and I decided, in the >>>>>>> interests of keeping the peace, what the heck; my mobility teacher >>>>>>> quickly realized that there was very little, beyond the immediate >>>>>>> rehearsing of directions, that she could improve upon what I and my >>>>>>> dog were already going. Since I got Trekker, that's even more so; >>>>>>> now >>>>>>> that Trekker is temporarily broken, I truly feel the loss. :) I >>>>>>> don't >>>>>>> see how the agencies really have done me any good, other than in the >>>>>>> purely material realm, and if I weren't as articulate as I am about >>>>>>> stating my needs, and as forceful as I am about what I need, which >>>>>>> most people are not, even that gain might be minimal, and even now >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> damage is significant. So, that's where my beef with the system(s) >>>>>>> comes in; sorry if that makes it a personal grudge, but there you >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> then. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mark BurningHawk Baxter >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 >>>>>>> MSN: [email protected] >>>>>>> My home page: >>>>>>> http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>> Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send >>>>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email >>>>>> to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this >>>>>> group, send email to >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> . >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email >>>>>> to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this >>>>>> group, send email to >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> . >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to >>>>> [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, >>>>> send email to >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to >>>>> [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, >>>>> send email to >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to >>>> [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, >>>> send email to >>>> [email protected] >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to >>> [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send >>> email to >>> [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to >>> [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send >>> email to >>> [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to >> [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send >> email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> >> > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To > unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to > [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email > to [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
